News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 11:16:08 AM »
One of the most exciting majors I've ever seen and the strategic course created it.

Really? I would like to see your definitions of strategic and penal.

No way does this compare to Lefty taking down Els for his first major. This was more like a soap opera, than a sports championship.

I suppose your favorite championship basketball game would be the one where they set the record for lowest shooting percentage by each side.


The winner and runner up were 7 under for the tournament.  Not too shabby on a very tough course playing as long as it can in pretty miserable conditions.  The winner shot a 67 in the final round.  I think your comments suit your agenda but not the facts.

Exactly what is my agenda?

I'll give you a fact. The winner and runner up played 18 yesterday in a combined 4 over par.

Now if I only knew my supposed agenda, then I could compare my fact with my agenda.


Every post of yours regarding yesterday's events has been negative about Carnoustie and the players involved at the death.  Your agenda appears to be to belittle the competition and the course itwas played on.  Fair enough that you prefer other events/courses but the fact is that Harrington played very well indeed yesterday but for two shots at 18 and Garcia played wonderfully for the four days.  Romero's round was one of the most extraordinary Open Championship rounds we'll ever see.

In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Brent Hutto

Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 11:20:09 AM »
George,

Thought experiment. Imagine you and I play two matches. This week we play Oakmont and next week we play the Old Course at St. Andrews. Which of those two courses would you expect to require more "thought and planning" in order to shoot a good score?

I think at St. Andrews we could have better odds of escaping with a decent score while mis-executing some shots (that's the penal thing). But I also think a fairly vanilla course management plan at Oakmont is going to produce something pretty close to your best possible score whereas the Old Course may well offer the potential of a (relatively) low score with some fairly detailed planning on a hole-by-hole basis.

I think part of Sean's distinction is that a course like Carnoustie might offer similar "strategic" opportunities to the Old Course (i.e. plan each tee shot and each approach to avoid the bunkers at all cost) but the "penal" features of Carnoustie mean that even the most carefully planned-out strategy will most often run aground upon slightly mis-executed shots which encounter burns, OB, etc. and obviate the whole artfully constructed game plan.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 11:24:12 AM »
Mark is on to something:  Romero had ten(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) birdies in the first 16 holes in the final round of a major , and on that course too!

reminds me of the time Duval started the final round at Augusta with 7 birdies in the first 11 or so holes......unfreakingbelievable!!!!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2007, 11:28:42 AM »
Romero played the last 11 holes without a par.  Indeed, he only had four pars in his entire round.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 11:32:07 AM »
Garland, I actually agree with most of your last post. Where we disagree is that you see the penalty aspect of Oakmont and Carnoustie as predominant. I see it as required to place the ultimate premium on thought.

Brent, TOC is probably one of the few I'd view (haven't been overseas yet) as better strategically than Oakmont and Carnoustie. As I said, I simply haven't been exposed to enough truly great courses to say where O&C fit in.

Having said that, I think TOC and Oakmont likely require very different mindsets, but both achieve the goal of providing the golfer with a thoughtful challenge, not merely an executional (Is that a word? It should be!) challege.

I disagree with anyone who thinks the best play at Oakmont is simply split the fairway, hit the center of the green, which seems to be the prevailing thought among its critics.

I think part of Sean's distinction is that a course like Carnoustie might offer similar "strategic" opportunities to the Old Course (i.e. plan each tee shot and each approach to avoid the bunkers at all cost) but the "penal" features of Carnoustie mean that even the most carefully planned-out strategy will most often run aground upon slightly mis-executed shots which encounter burns, OB, etc. and obviate the whole artfully constructed game plan.

In large part, it is how you plan for these mis-executed shots, and how you handle the ensuing shots, that place such a premium on thoughtful play.

If the consequences aren't dire, is there really a decision to be made?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 11:35:45 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brent Hutto

Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2007, 11:33:12 AM »
Romero played the last 11 holes without a par.  Indeed, he only had four pars in his entire round.

And he had a makable par putt on the final hole that would have put him in the playoff.

I'm not sure either Harrington or Garcia would have relished going up a birdie machine like Romero at that point in time.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2007, 11:33:47 AM »

Every post of yours regarding yesterday's events has been negative about Carnoustie and the players involved at the death.  Your agenda appears to be to belittle the competition and the course itwas played on.  Fair enough that you prefer other events/courses but the fact is that Harrington played very well indeed yesterday but for two shots at 18 and Garcia played wonderfully for the four days.  Romero's round was one of the most extraordinary Open Championship rounds we'll ever see.



Garcia played wonderfully the first two days, OK the third, and not so hot the last day. Harrington played well the last day, but not so well as a finisher.

Do you deny these facts?

The course and the players gave us defensive play down the stretch and in the playoff. Garcia was forced to take driver on 18 in the playoff, and with the exception of a very lucky lie in the rough, it would have been virtually over after that.

You say my agenda is to denigrate. I would say it is not to denegrate, but simply try to inject some reality into all the fantasy being expressed here.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2007, 11:34:44 AM »
When the tournament is "on the line."

Whenever a big putt needs dropped.

Whenever I see Sergio lining one up that he could really stand to make....

I have ZERO confidence he will sink it.  ZERO

He might be money in the Ryder Cup, but he gags with the flat stick in the majors.

It's like Watson in the 90's.  You knew he was going to choke on a 3 footer when it was really important.

Garcia had this thing in the bag.......
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

CHrisB

Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2007, 11:40:49 AM »
You can't have strategy without penalty. However, when penalty becomes predominant, then although strategy is still there it is reduced significantly and the golfers are almost always taking the safe choice. Admittedly rain mitigated some of the penalty at Carnasty, but instead of seeing the leaders taking spectacular shot after spectacular shot, we saw them taking safe shot after safe shot.

Garland,
I'm trying to understand your position better--can you give some examples of all of these safe shots you're talking about?

I saw all sorts of spectacular shots Sunday. Just from the leaders, what about Romero's 10 birdies in the final round of a major? Or Harrington stiffing it on #1 and #17 in the playoff? Or Sergio hitting the pin from 248 yards on #16 in the playoff, answering Harrington's shot on #17 (do you realize just how difficult that approach is, esp. from the right edge of the fairway to that pin?), or giving himself a chance with the 203-yard 6-iron from the upslope on #18 in the playoff?

Regarding strategy, the leaders played the 18th in 3 different ways coming down the stretch--Garcia went with 2 long irons in regulation, then driver/6-iron in the playoff, Romero hit driver/8-iron, and Harrington hit driver in regulation, then 3-wood/short iron/wedge in the playoff.

The 6th (Hogan's Alley par 5) was another hole that saw a bunch of different strategies on Sunday--Tiger hit 3 irons, Stricker hit 3-wood/fairway wood/pitch, and Sergio and Els hit Driver/fairway wood just short of the green.

Same with the 11th--Sergio, who had hit driver to the narrowest fairway on the course to 69 yards on Saturday, hit iron off the tee this time, while Els drove it way down there and left himself with a flip-wedge.

And on and on and on... The only holes where I saw practically all players take the same basic strategy off the tee was on #1 and #17, where practically everyone tried to hit it in the same place. But then on the approach shots the variety again came out.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 11:45:14 AM by Chris Brauner »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2007, 11:45:04 AM »
...but simply try to inject some reality into all the fantasy being expressed here.


Is it really fantasy, when it actually happened? Saying it would have been over if Garcia hadn't drawn a lucky lie in the rough is fantasy.

You obviously have a very different idea of what spectacular shots are than I do.

Would you say Micheel's shot to win at Oakland Hills was spectacular?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brent Hutto

Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2007, 11:48:06 AM »
I disagree with anyone who thinks the best play at Oakmont is simply split the fairway, hit the center of the green, which seems to be the prevailing thought among its critics.

Well, that's not an argument I would care to defend. Any course (unless it has some truly wild-ass greens) is pretty easy to score on with that approach, executed well.

I think all of the courses mentioned (TOC, Carnoustie, Oakmont) do reward a certain amount of thoughtful planning to score as well as possible given ones ability. Whether or not you place Carnoustie or Oakmont beyond Sean's mythical cutpoint between "strategic" and "penal", such a continuum does exist IMO. I think it has a lot to do with plain old recovery options. Let's say in our hypothetical match each of us starts out with a sound, detailed game plan for the respective courses and our individual strengths and weaknesses. And let's say that during one of the rounds we both find ourselves constantly "off the book" because of execution errors or conditions (wind?) or both.

My point of view (and perhaps Sean's) is that when the penal features are sufficiently comprehensive and severe, the cost of bad execution tends to be such that only one very conservative (and perhaps difficult to execute) option exists for salvaging a non-disaster on the hole. That's the beauty of a supremely "strategic" course like TOC, if you make an execution mistake you may well find yourself in a position where correct thinking (and local knowledge) allows one or two straightforward shots to regain the initiative on a hole rather than writing it off as a double-bogey or worse.

Admittedly, by picking the Old Course I'm sort of loading my argument. But as I said, there unequivocally exists a range of styles even if the Old Course is way out in the far tail of the distribution at the "strategic" end. We can endlessly debate where Carnoustie or Oakmont falls on that continuum but at some point even in the presence of "strategic" opportunities you've got to start saying "penal" and not saying "strategic".

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2007, 12:11:59 PM »
Admittedly Romero played spectacularly for the most part, but not on 18.

Neither Garcia or Harrington played spectacularly on 18 either.

It is interesting that these two guys are playing a low spinning ball that makes it easier to hit it straighter, but yet every time driver came out of the bag near the end, it misbehaved and got sentenced to staying in the bag. Compare that to Jack hitting driver with a high spinning ball on 17 and 18 against Player in 1968 to the center of the fairway past all trouble. We got irons, hybrids, and safe play from Garcia and Harrington for the most part.

"One of the great contests or what?" It was a tight contest that lent itself to drama, but falls short of "great" constest.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2007, 12:12:22 PM »
I thought the setup was interesting in that the course seemed to offer a lot of feast or famine options--some people were going low with 64s and 65s, but plenty of others, because of the burn and the OB, were blowing up on certain holes.  The best player in the world was unable to break 69.  

Tiger's comments were interesting.  He said:  "The conditions and the golf course, the way it was playing, yeah, you can make some birdies. But also if you just missed a couple of shots today, the pins were extremely difficult. If you short-side yourself, you're not getting up-and-down today. If you go out there, most of the pins are a little bit on the knobs, and it makes for very interesting putting."

Because of this, I suspected that Garcia would have a battle on Sunday--someone from the -3 group was going to make a run and Sergio might struggle to shoot under par.  

Thinking about the finish, I think the "choke" label is being applied too frequently.  Sergio hit some poor chips and poor putts on the front nine, but he played quite well on the back.  I don't think you can say that he choked by not making par on 18--that's just a diabolical hole.  And, I don't accept the suggestion that Harrington isn't a deserving winner because of what he did on 18 in regulation.  He did enough to win.  

Riveting entertainment.  

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2007, 12:18:56 PM »
George,

Yes there were some spectacular shots. The fantasy is to think this was one of the great contests. No matter what the announcers said about "misreads" you could clearly see Sergio yipping putts. Romero gave it away. Harrington almost gave it away, but got lucky.

Great contest no! Great finishing hole no!

Over and out
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jay Flemma

Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2007, 02:53:58 PM »
I blew off my tee time to watch it...I'm HORRIFIED for poor sergio...I love his game and fire and am certian he'll grow up soon.

That being said, it was great having Harrington win to make my prediction come through.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2007, 04:31:40 PM »
wow, i just read some/all? of Sergio's post round comments...not very cool, saying how others putts go in when his lip out, yada, yada , yada ::) :P

you have no one to blame but yourself Sergio!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2007, 04:56:33 PM »
Paul, he could blame Paddy for getting up and down for a 6....

Probably does.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2007, 04:59:43 PM »
Paul, he could blame Paddy for getting up and down for a 6....

Probably does.

 :)

your probably right George

man, he could have really given himself a HUGE lead on the back 9 on Sat...i think he missed 3-4 putts of 10 feet or less

199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2007, 12:36:22 AM »
...and i also strongly disagree with doug's post about harrington having a mental breakdown on 18 and doing a van de velde... he had to go for that green... he just played two bad shots


Had to?  How do you figure?  His problem was the terrible angle he had into that green, not the carry over the burn.  He was hitting 3 after his drop, and could have laid up and had a good chance at an up and down 5, with 6 as the worst score he could make.

If he hit a good shot and put it on the green he's most likely going to make a 5 since it would be extremely unlikely he'd put it close enough to make the putt since the pin was in the absolute worst spot to attack from way right (I'm sure that was deliberate on the R&A's part)  If he chickens out and avoids the OB he short sides himself and he's almost certain to make 6, if he pulls it left and goes OB he's done.

He probably wasn't thinking about hitting it in the burn again, but consider where his ball entered that burn.  I think if he'd flushed that ball on the same line his fat shot took it may have been OB, so hitting that shot fat may have saved the tournament for him.

The way I look at it if he hit 10 balls from that location and laid up he'd average 5.5, getting up and down half the time (those pros are good with their wedges!)  If he shoots at the green 10 times he maybe hits it or close enough for an up and down and makes 5 half the time, maybe 1/3 of the time he chickens a bit right and short sides himself and makes 6, 1/10 of the time he goes OB and its done and then there's the bizarre outcome that no one would have predicted where he hit it so fat it actually bounces into the burn and he makes 6 but it could easily have been 7.

He knew Sergio had to play 18, so giving yourself a 50/50 chance of making 5 and forcing Sergio to make par to tie, with the other 50 a 100% certain 6 that means Sergio has to make par to win which is no mean feat there, was definitely the play.  He should never had hit at the green.

Maybe in 2015 or whenever the Open visits Carnoustie again when the next guy is in that situation he'll learn from history and lay it up if he has to play from way right.  That angle is just not appealing at all, there is literally nowhere good to miss it.  If you've just hit a tee shot offline enough to put you in that position, clearly you do not have the directional control necessary to play a shot at that green from that angle in that situation.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2007, 01:11:33 AM »
cracking good show, I say

I think 18 is great...made the boys think and you saw a wide range of scores...sure it's hard but what's wrong with that?

Just thought I may add that this could be the quote of the week.

Garland, hello, where is everyone who disagrees??
 ;D  ;)

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2007, 05:24:32 AM »
i was all set to give my basic views on the strategic / penal argument when i saw doug's reply to my earlier post...

...doug, admittedly that was a horrible angle in to a horrible pin... but to lay up and give yourself (at best) a 50/50 chance for a five leaving sergio with (at least) a 50/50 chance to make par and win the tournament outright is highly defensive... sometimes you have to stand up and try and win a tournament with one shot... if harrington had played safe and lost it, he'd have given up golf...

cricket analogy: play for the guaranteed draw or declare and allow the possibility of either side winning... defensive vs aggresive...

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2007, 05:35:52 AM »
could someone please analyse my layman's take on this strategic / penal argument:

a strategic hole (no point talking about a course, variety being the spice of life) usually lays out hazards and / or decisions on the direct route from tee to green

a penal hole usually flanks the fairways with these hazards... they are not on a direct routing from tee to green

a heroic choice can be applied to either a penal or a strategic hole...

now let's take some examples at carnoustie... no.3 is a good strategic golf hole... no.6 (although it has OB tight left) is also fairly strategic but probably was once far more so when driving down the right side was more of an option...

no.17 has a penal drive with some heroic elements: the burn left becomes tighter the further you go so there is a decision to be made...

no.18 has an extremely penal drive with OB left and burn and bunkers right... but with a cross hazard / forced carry burn before the green providing a couple of strategic options (lay up / go for it), this most penal of drives also involves some strategic thinking...

can we really ever say a course is a 'strategic' course or a 'penal' course? are we being too academic about it?

(this is a genuine question by the way... i do not intend to preach on this forum like some others... i am here to learn)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2007, 11:00:04 AM »
can we really ever say a course is a 'strategic' course or a 'penal' course? are we being too academic about it?

(this is a genuine question by the way... i do not intend to preach on this forum like some others... i am here to learn)

This is the debate Sean, Brent, Garland and I have been having for 6 months now. You might want to look through some of the Oakmont individual hole threads or US Open threads to see where everyone stands.

My own position is that the old definitions are too limiting - the penal definition certainly implies if not outright states the lack of thinking required. I think Oakmont and Carnoustie are prime examples of courses that were designed in the penal sense (old definition), yet require a great deal of thought to play in the minimum number of strokes (hence my belief they are effectively very strategic as well - as always, apologies to Rich G for the anthropomorphism :)).

Sean, Brent, and Garland all seem to think I'm nuts and that I'm redefining the terms - which I am! My main point is that a well done "penal" course can function as strategically as almost any well done "strategic" course.

Hope that helps, with my view, anyway. We're all here to learn - well, everyone but Matt, that is :) - so don't be shy about asking questions.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One of the great contests or what?
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2007, 05:50:30 PM »
How about?


a penal course is one where an unthinking player will soon end up in the merde...

a strategic course is one where an unthinking player will miss many oportunities...

It can amount to the same thing but it doesnt have to.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.