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[Mike_Cirba]

WMulvehill;

I understand the "The Harvester" was built with Macdonald/Raynor as inspiration, and coupled with what I've seen of Foster's southwestern work, I am intrigued to get there someday.  His work at classic courses such as Southern Hills has been mostly well-received, and he seems to really focus on classically motivated architecture.

Just as a Foster update, one of his first east coast courses opened the other day, on the eastern shore of Maryland at a course called River Marsh at the Cheseapeake Hyatt resort.

I'm going to make it down there this fall, and will report back.

[Jerry C]

As a New York resident forced to pay non-resident fees everywhere, I was thoroughly pleased with this development. I also played the Black back in the days when the wait was actually shorter on Black than on any of the other courses (I also recall the rough would be cut once for the Ivy Championships and then again for the NYS Open). This was a long overdue move by Castro and Pataki--a strike back for NY residents who have been scalped when they venture to NJ or CT or elsewhere to play golf as a non resident. As a  NY taxpayer, I was not happy that the Black was constantly occupied by out of state residents who were paying the same rates as residents (check out the license plates in the lot at Bethpage for a change to see what I am talking about). I am sorry that you have been forced to suffer since you were a loyal Black player but this was a move for the better and might alleviate the flow of players who flock to the Black simply because the pros played there (i.e., the 36 handicapper from CT who I played behind who insisted on playing the Back tees). I will tolerate an increase in fees so long as NY'ers are given a better deal than out of staters.

One change that should have been instituted is a requirement that all players have a handicap. This is a simple requirement that many find onerous but I feel would improve the quality of play on the course (and provide revenue as well).

FYI: For those who champion value golf please read on ...

Notice for everyone -- especially fans of Bethpage Black. The State of New York could not leave well enough alone and had to jump right in after the US Open and DOUBLE, THAT'S RIGHT, D-O-U-B-L-E the out-of-state fee to play the Black from $31 on weekdays to $62 and from $39 to $78 on weekends and holidays.

What really pisses me off, sorry for the direct language, but there's no other way to say it, but plenty of out-of-state people like myself (don't mean to be an egotist) and others who ventured to the Black for many a years when turf grew more by accident than design now must take it on the chin.

I understand BB is NY State Park, but does the State of New York / re: Pataki and Castro need to pick the pockets SO SOOON. Sure, it's an easy win because out-of-state people have no say when Pataki runs for re-election this fall.

I love Bethpage and it's still a reasonable fee compared top Pebble and a host of others, but the opportunity to see the course is becoming less and less of a reality for those who live just outside New York let alone those from other states in America.

To all my golfing friends in New York the question now becomes when the fees will be raised for you. My guess? It's doubtful that '03 will see a rise but just wait in '04.

[A_Clay_Man]

Is it me or is the attitude/position put forth by Jerry C a perfect example of what's wrong with people and therefore golf. When someone has a good thing, there is always someone who has to ruin it. Why the hell do you care how much someone else paid? Tell me does the state ever accept federal funds? (How about the original monies?) Aren't some of my federal dollars being filtered or re-routed and therefore aren't I entitled to the same public lands at the same price as you or any one other? This piqueyoun behavior is pervasive and I just think someone needs to say enough is enough. Municipalities act like little brats when dealing with other neighboring communities all over this country. makes me sick

[Jeff Goldman]

There is another relatively new fun Keith Foster course in Zion Illinios, right at the wisconsin border, called Shepard's Crook.  $35 to play for a nonresident, and a lot of fun and playable, with some very sloping greens and play requiring thought.  The course also looks far less manufactured than many high end illinois course, has many holes where the ground game comes into play (1st, 2nd, the 220 yd par 3 fourth, as well as 14, a par 5 of 600 yards).  Why hasn't Foster gotten much mention here?

[Doug Wright]

Jeff,

Keith Foster has been mentioned several times on this site over the past year or so, generally favorably I think except for questions about what he did with Southern Hills. Use the search engine and type his name in to see where/how.

All The Best,

[Evan Fleisher]

WMulvehill, Cirba, and others...

I too have played and will echo the sentiments about The Harvester here in Iowa.  It is a really fun course, laid out in the "style" of a prairie links course.  Plenty of high native grasses, undulating fairways (and greens), generous landing areas, wind, the ability to play run-ups and bump-n-runs around the green complexes, plenty of stylish bunkering, and did I mention wind?

This was my third Foster course (Gateway National and The Quarry being the others), and I've been quite impressed all the way around.  BTW...rates were $55 to walk (including range balls) on a weekday, and supposedly the lodge stay-n-play packages are a good deal also.

One last thing, The Harvester is only about 30 minutes from Ames, so an additional round at Perry Maxwell's Veenker Memorial Golf Course at UofI is another great "add-on" for this trip...and at $20 to walk during the week, how can you possibly go wrong?

[Will E]

Jeff,
Shepard's Crook is a wonderful value. What Foster did on this setting is amazing. The green complexes here are among the best in IL. He deserves mention here.

[Mike_Cirba]

The 12th hole at Keith Foster's "Texas Star Golf Course" in Euless, TX has to be among the Top 3 most unusual, ballsy holes I've seen built in modern times.  

It is almost as unusual as The Alps hole at NGLA, and I realize that is quite a statement.

The hole plays about 470 yards from the tips, to a par four, and the hole doglegs right fairly sharply at around 260 yards.  There are three diagonal bunkers, each progressively longer, located exactly at the right hand corner.  There is enormous room out to the left of them.

The problem is, if you bail left, you not only have an exceptionally long, uphill approach, but it's also COMPLETELY blind, due to both the uphill nature, as well as due to a rough-covered hillside that sits short left 50 yards short of the green.  Only a drive the successfully challenges the trio of bunkers on the right gives the player any view of the flagstick.

The green itself is a narrow, elevated shelf that runs from front to back.  Because the green is located not at the top of the hill, but on the downslope behind it, it does accommodate a straight run up shot, but it falls into trouble on all sides.

If one wants to play it conservatively for a bogey five, it's very do-able.  However, those thinking par usually end up with worse than bogey.  

How the owners let him build such a wild and unsually enticing hole is beyond me.

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry C:

I'm very sorry you believe doubling the non-resident fee at Bethpage Black is perfectly acceptable. Many people have played the Black for a number of years and some how you believe two wrongs makes a right

When you talk about what NJ (my home state) and CT do to New Yorkers I ask you this -- what taxpayer owned course are you talking about? I hope you're not mentioning CCFAD's as an example because everyone regardless of residence foots the same bill.

Please also tell me what taxpayer owned course in either NJ or CT charges non-state-residents the same amount as the Black does now at $62 weekdays and $78 weekends & holidays? Let me know if there any courses of quality among your list too?

As aclayman mentioned I'm sure if due diligence happened one could document how Federal money has been involved with Bethpage over the years.

Don't be misled Jerry and think that fees at the Black will protect even New Yorkers for too long. My greatest fear is that the Black, a course loved by more than just Empire State residents, will become the defacto equivalent of Pebble Beach east. No, the fees won't get as high as the California great one but the scent is in the air.

One last thing -- golf is about sharing and enjoying the treasures we have. The Black is that and more. And, as someone who waited in the lines for over 30 years and was a huge cheerleader for the course to get the Open I don't think bumping fees 100% is anyway to say thanks for the loyalty!

[Michael Dugger]

Jerry C sounds like he has just been around a few courses in his day and cannot stand to be playing behind slow pokes.  Nevertheless, is also sounds like his case is premised on the fact that the black is no longer a true NY muni.  With all the out of towner license plates in the lot, why shouldn't they raise the price to match the demand.   Is this really that far of a stretch?   The Open only made the black more popular and therefore much more like a carnival feel on the 1st tee than that of a old school, down home on the farm feel.  I cannot help but feel that prices are all relative in the first place anyways.  If the best are not the most expensive then we are comparing horses to handgrenades.    

[Jerry C]

Gentlemen:
I did not mean to engender so much negativity in just my second post on this terrific forum but I do want to make a few points in response to the critics:
-The issue of federal funds being used by NYS to administer Bethpage is irrelevant. The course is principally financed by NY taxpayers who should therefore be the beneficiaries of their own state's largesse. I doubt federal funds were directly funnelled to Bethpage for golf course upkeep--money might have been given to the NYS park system which chose to direct those funds as they saw fit.
-While NYS is the operator of the Bethpage courses, courses in NJ and CT operated by their respective counties do charge a premium to non residents (i.e., Flanders Valley, Hominy, Richter Park to name a few). Bethpage has not excluded non-residents from playing but simply have charged them a premium for the privilege of using a NYS facility. I do not find this onerous nor do I find it contrary to the spirit of the game we all love.

I do not want to take this terrific thread in the wrong direction and seem like a bratty NY'er but I believe at $75 the Black is a great deal. Moreover, the steep fees might actually entice non-residents to play the under appreciated Red course which, I believe is almost as stern a test of golf as the Black (from the Back tees of course), or one of the other less expensive courses at Bethpage.

I do wish to make one comment regarding the existing tee time system. I am for as fair a  system as possible to administer tee times at Black but I believe the telephone reservation system has created an ogligarchy of players who consistently are able to reserve tee times on the black to the exclusion of the general populace. Stories abound of Bell Atlantic employees who created back doors into the telephone system, preferential treatment for Farmingdale residents dialing from the 249 exchange and even a story of a telemarketer who sets his 41 phones to automatically dial in at 7 pm and never fails to get an early tee time on Black. I believe Bethpage had the right idea limiting the number of times one could play Black to create a fairer playing field. Bethpage has created a  speed dial culture where a system that was more arbitrary (i.e., a lottery) would better accomplish their goals. Just my two cents.