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Markep

Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« on: August 16, 2002, 10:21:35 AM »
I played Bulls Bay last week and I am curious to check my opinion of the course versus any others.

For those of you unfamiliar with the course (www.bullsbaygolf.com), it is a Mike Strantz design in the low-country that features a very un low-countryish 80 foot hill, on top of which the clubhouse sits (under construction). From the top of this man-made hill, there is a great view out over the salt marsh to the barrier islands and the ocean. Something like 15 of the holes are visible from the clubhouse. Outstanding ! The hill is also an important feature of the course with 3 tees coming off of it and 3 greens built into it. The existence of this hill gives a certain "Ballybunion-ish" feel to a few of the holes, quite uncharcteristic for the area, but a nice change of pace from the flat courses that predominate here.

I am uncertain what to think of the course. While I did enjoy playing it and I would like to play it again, would I still feel that way after playing it for the 20th time ? Most of the fairways are quite wide, with some being particularly mammoth, such as 1 and 10. I played with my father and brother-in-law, 21 and 28 handicaps respectively, and they had a great time at the course, really enjoying the fairway width. I am a 4 handicap, and while I thought the course looked easy, I didn't exactly tear it up with a 81 on this admittedly windy day (20 knots or so).

One thing that stands out for me in thinking about the course is that I have a clear memory of each of the 18 holes. There is no other course I have played where I could remember each hole so well after the first time I had played the course.

Things I liked :
Views, fairway width (in certain cases), fairway conditioning, strategic options, hill, memorability of holes, playability for all levels of handicap.

Things I didn't like :
fairway width (in certain cases), greens conditioning (I know -- tough in SC in the middle of August), too many scruffy, unfinished looking bunkers, walkability is tough due to hill.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2002, 04:20:08 PM »
Markep:

For some reason this course has not received as much attention as other Mike Strantz courses.  There have been a couple positive reports, but it seems that to date there are still not that many people who have seen it (compared to say Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent).

I don't know why that is.  Charleston is a great town to visit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2002, 07:35:11 AM »
Tim,

Much of that lack of exposure (compared to Tobacco Road and True Blue, etc) is because of both its age as well as the fact that it is Strantz's first Private course.  While I think someone with some imagination and the gift of gab can probably get on, it isnt like just everyone vacationing in Charleston can find this course on their package menu.

Also addressing the width thoughts Markep.  I often like a little width on holes when the architect "gives you just enough rope to hang yourself".  Quite often he gives you a huge area to land your ball, but there is an area less than half the actual width that actually gives you the proper shot into the hole.  Obviously with Strantz's bunkering there are some angles where you just dont want to be approaching from.  

However first and foremost on Bulls Bay I think the width was also provided because of the wind that you mentioned.  I think what you may have played in was just a "breeze" compared to what they can expect from time to time given their proximity to the ocean.  Talking with some of the people there they wanted to make the wind an integral part of the golf experience.  If you built a more traditional narrow corridor fairway, there would likely be many days when it was almost unplayable.

I enjoyed Bulls Bay very much, and think it is somewhere I would love to be a member and play everyday.  I will have to go back in the archives and see if I can find the description that I posted here back in January I think.

Take Care
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2002, 07:47:25 AM »
Found my post from Jan 13 of this year.  Here it is cut and pasted......

Maybe with some pictures mixed in we can get this in the Course Profile area with Ran's help.  I would like to see this get in there as I just thought bulls bay was a fun golf course, and would be a club I would love to play everyday.

I will go ahead and start a brand new post on bulls bay GC as this is a long one.  I have finally had time to sit down this weekend and put this together.  This will replace the one from a few days ago.  bulls bay is the new private course designed by Mike Strantz just north of Charleston, SC.  I believe I heard that it opened around Thanksgiving 2001 for limited play.

One of the things I liked about the course was the width in the areas where it is needed to account for the normal breezy conditions that will be prevalent here on this exposed piece of property in the SC lowcountry.  It not only allows for some dramatically different angles of play depending on how much risk you want to take on the tee shots and how that effects the strategy of the approach shots.  It also allows the course to hopefully remain playable in many different wind conditions.

bulls bay GC plays to posted yardage of 6930 on the card, but the course has the flexibility to change the makeup of individual holes to accommodate changes in the wind as there are several additional tees that are not listed on the card that can allow them to move certain holes back even farther and/or others up as the wind might dictate.

The obvious focal point once you come onto the property is a large central hill.  This is one place where Strantz’s flair for the dramatic comes through.  Although this course is much more subdued than Mike’s more recent efforts Tot Hill Farm, Tobacco Road, and True Blue that flair still shows itself in several places.  However, at bulls bay you sometimes have to pay a little more attention to pick up on some of these subtle things, unlike his last few designs where they hit you over the head sometimes like a sledgehammer.  This large hill will be the focal point for the entire property.  They apparently have  been moving dirt on this for nearly 2 years, as they had to compact the soil every two feet in order to meet specifications to put the clubhouse on top of this when they are done.  They have apparently been growing this in for quite some time, and other than the fact that you know a hill this large could not be natural in this part of the country it looks like it has been there for quite sometime.  

What they have achieved is a huge hill in the middle of the lowcountry from which you can see most all of the course, as well as a lot of the surrounding low country area, and bulls bay.  The views will be spectacular when the clubhouse is added later.  In addition to the site for the clubhouse the hill also offers a few opportunities to give some elevation change to some holes.  I liked the way Strantz’s showed restraint and only used the hill sparingly.  The 1st, 10th, and 15th tee boxes play off from parts of the hillside dropping considerably (for Charleston, SC) to the fairways below.  The greens at 9, 14, and 18 also use some of that elevation with uphill approach shots.  By and large though this course plays along the flatland below darting out to the nearby river and low country areas and back again.

One of Strantz’s little touches is that the cart paths in many areas are just dirt paths cut through the grasses covering the hillside.  He hand painted where he wanted each tire rut to be cut out of the grass and where he wanted grass to be left in between the tire tracks.  This is where the real artistic touch of Strantz’s comes out.  The result looks like old wagon trails through the native grass that must have been there since the pioneers went west.  Let me tell you coming from a kid who grew up in South Dakota and has seen the real thing through the native grassland I grew up on it looks pretty good here in the Carolina lowcountry.  And it fits with the “Wild West” theme at bulls bay.

The course highlights:
No 1. - 421yd. Par 4.  Plays down hill from the elevated teebox.  A strait away hole with ample width in the landing area.   However forgiving the landing area is the second shots are severely limited if you are far right as you will be forced to play a cut around some trees pinching short of the green.  I like that it forgives the slightly missed shot but then penalizes you by making your second shot that much more difficult.  I found this to be the general theme out here.  You can slightly miss a shot and still be able to find and play your ball, but it will be a more difficult shot.

No. 3 - 170yd Par 3.  Multiple teeing locations and directions of play make for some dramatically different playing options from day to day here.  It reminds me of one of the par threes on the front nine of the Ranch course at Black Diamond.  Lots of sand surrounding the green.

No. 4 - 530yd Par 5.  Back tees built out on a small island of grass out in the lowcountry marshland.  After fairly long carry from back tees to a fairway with ample width your second shot lay-up area is pinched slightly by waste areas.  The green is tucked back ever so slightly to the left in a small stand of trees so if you want to try to go at it in two you better be able to work the ball slightly.  Nothing tricky but a good solid hole.

No. 9 - 377yd. Par 4.  Now you return towards the large hill in the center of the property.  That final uphill portion makes this slight dogleg left play fairly long even though it is under 400yds on the card.  Again a very ample driving area gives you the option of playing safe to the meat of the fairway to the right or carry as much waste area inside the dogleg as you would like for the easier approach.

No. 10 - 586yd Par 5.  Plays dramatically downhill from the elevated tee box near the top of the clubhouse hill.  The parallel fairway of #15 to the right only separated by a thin ribbon of dunes almost looks like it could be an alternate route to use, but I don't think there would be any advantage, although it would allow recovery should you drastically miss one to the right.  

No. 11 - 437yd Par 4.  This dogleg left cape hole plays around a waste area bulkheaded in with some railroad ties.  This is the picture that Dick commented on the True Blue post earlier (someone had posted a link) and it is not as obtrusive as it looks from that picture as you would have to be in a boat out in the lake to see it from that angle.  Once you decide how much to cut the cape, and execute the shot you are facing a potential long second shot into probably the largest green on the property.  fortunately it is well accommodating to a run up shot.

No. 14 - 190yd. Par 3.  This par three makes nice use of the clubhouse hill.  The green is nestled nicely into a hollow in the hillside and bunkered well. The highest compliment I can probably give to a golf hole I will bestow on this hole.  When I stood on the tee it reminded me of Sand Hills in NE.  I know that is borderline sacrilegious to say, but it does remind me of a hole there quite a bit.

No. 16 - 341yd. Par 4.  This is an interesting little hole.  Great strategy, this nearly driveable par 4 tempts you to fire straight away at the green.  From the back tees a shot carrying  about 230-250 yards over the lake in front of the teebox will likely run up through the large open throat into this green.  Or if you prefer play it the more conservative route as a dogleg right for a hopefully safe par.  I am usually not one to go for it on these all or nothing temptation holes, however even from the furthest possible tee location this one feels doable, and turned out to be on my first attempt.  After my opponent put his second into the lake he decided to play the conservative route.  What a great match play hole this would be coming down the stretch in a close match.

No. 18 - 429yd. Par 4.  Much like its little brother No. 9, this slight dogleg left plays uphill on the approach shot.  Also like the 9th you are given ample room if you want to play to the fat of the fairway right.  However unlike the 9th this one measures a healthy 429 on the card from the back tees.  Helping you in your decision of how much of the left side waste area you think you want to cut off on your tee shot.  The green is cut into a large amphitheater area of the clubhouse hill just waiting for the clubhouse to be built above.  A perfect spot it will no doubt be to sit with a pint and watch the undoing of your fellow members coming up 18.

Again I think the best compliment that I can pay is that I hope to get back to play it again in different wind conditions.  I think it would definitely keep your interest.  I only wish I had some pictures of the holes.  Unfortunately I did not have my camera with me.  A friend of mine had his camera with us, but I did not realize it until the end.  All that I have is a couple of pictures of us on the 18th tee, including the one you see here with my profile on every post.  I look forward to seeing what others think of this fun club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

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Tim Weiman

Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2002, 08:40:27 AM »
Turboe:

Thanks for bringing back your original comments.  Don't know when I'll be in Charleston, but I would certainly like to check out Bulls Bay.

Seems like the club has been ultra quite.  Even places like Friars Head (not even yet open) have had many more people visit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Markep

Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2002, 03:29:38 PM »

Turboe -
  Thanks for your very good write-up on Bulls Bay. I am actually considering joining this club as we have recently bought a condo in Wild Dunes, about 25 minutes away. While I like the Wild Dunes Links course, it is definitely condo alley/resort golf, hence my thoughts along joining a private course. Also, whereas Bulls Bay's width accomodates the wind, the Links course is rather narrow and a windy day can get a tad "challenging".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2002, 09:25:11 PM »
Tim & Markep,

Please let me know when you are going to be down here.  I would always love another chance to get out to Bulls Bay, or there is some other great golf to be had in Charleston.

Markep,
are you moving down here full time, or just a part time condo situation.  I dont know how much of Charleston golf you know, but there are some great old classic clubs down here as well.

Tim,  
I was thinking about you the other day, I was up in Cleveland for a business meeting the other week and when it ended a little early on that Monday I was looking to slide out somewhere to play.  When I pushed the tee in the ground at Fowlers Mill, I was thinking about how close to Sand Ridge I was and wondered if you were still a member?

Hope all is well,
Daryl
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Markep

Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2002, 05:09:35 AM »
Daryl,

The Condo is a vacation condo that we rent out when we are not there. My wife has family in the area with a brother on Sullivan's island, hence the location of our vacation spot. Our primary residence is NJ. I am always looking for golf partners when I am in Charleston, so perhaps we could get together down there although I know Greenville is a bit of a hike to Charleston (3 1/2 hours ?)

I have played at a few other courses in the area besides BB and WD; those are Dunes West, River Towne  and CC of Charleston. Of those 3, only CCC is private, but it is on the other side of Charleston from WD, probably 40 minutes away without bad traffic, which does happen occasionally. CCC is a very nice old Raynor course, it is profiled on this site.
Dunes West I liked while I found River Town to be torture.

Quote
Tim & Markep,

Please let me know when you are going to be down here.  I would always love another chance to get out to Bulls Bay, or there is some other great golf to be had in Charleston.

Markep,
are you moving down here full time, or just a part time condo situation.  I dont know how much of Charleston golf you know, but there are some great old classic clubs down here as well.

Tim,  
I was thinking about you the other day, I was up in Cleveland for a business meeting the other week and when it ended a little early on that Monday I was looking to slide out somewhere to play.  When I pushed the tee in the ground at Fowlers Mill, I was thinking about how close to Sand Ridge I was and wondered if you were still a member?

Hope all is well,
Daryl
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2002, 03:48:35 AM »
Markep,

Yes Greenville is about 3-1/2 hours from Charleston, however my biggest customer is down in Charleston area, so I am down there at least every couple weeks usually.

You also need to make sure that you get out to Yeamans Hall GC another Raynor design done right around the same time as CCC.  It has a more remote location and quite a unique club atmosphere.  It is also closer to WD side of town.  

Keep me posted on your travels.  Also if you ever have some time on the way into or out of Charleston, I belong at a wonderful club up between Greenville and Columbia.  It is a great golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

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Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2002, 12:16:12 PM »
Visited Bulls Bay a few weeks ago and really like the golf course....did not play the course....just stopped in to tour the place on my way to Myrtle.  I have about 200 pics of the course if anybody is curious.  I later played Tobacco a few days later and took the same amount of pics there...just got back from Shinnecock 2 days ago and some of the guys said Strantz visited there to get inspiration with his man-made hill and the one at Shinnecock...plus the grass areas etc.

He is doing some very interesting stuff in my opinion...plus the guys in the temporary hut at Bulls are very nice and friendly with the drinks and construction notes of the course.  Cant wait to get back there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TexasPete

Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2002, 01:33:20 PM »
I live in the Charleston area, but haven't played this course.  Anyone who's familiar with courses in this area, knows that its typically one flat hole after another.  The idea of such huge elevation changes in a lowcountry course is very cool.

When I found out Stranz (sp?) was building a course down here I was elated, I knew it was going to be something special.  I was a little dissapointed to find out that this was his first private course.

Someday I hope to be able to get on the membership over there.

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2002, 07:51:30 PM »
We need to have Mike Vegis weigh in on this as well.  He should have a pretty good feel on things in Charleston I would imagine.  

A couple other notable clubs that have not been mentioned is the Cherokee Plantation out by Walterboro, I would love to hear from anyone who has some feel for how that course is.  I know they have done some work on it over the last couple years, and are doing some more I would love to hear from anyone who knows details.

Also there is the new exclusive Briars Creek just off Kiawah Island.  The new Rees Jones course that just opened.

Also Mike if you are out there I have always wondered what are your neighbors courses like out there on Seabrook Island.  I have never been out there and dont know much at all about the course(s) out there. I think they have two correct??

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Reid_Nelson

Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2002, 08:31:01 AM »
Actually, Mike passed this one off to me, since I'm a member at Bulls Bay.  I think most of the comments herein about Bulls Bay are accurate.  It truly is unlike anything in the Lowcountry, maybe even well beyond.  Of the guests I have had out to the course, including many well-traveled golf writers, the word that is most repeated is 'fun.' It is simply a fun course to play, one that you want to play again and again.

As for some of the specific comments, Bulls Bay is golf on a grand scale, if I can use that term.  In general, wide fairways lead to large greens.  But as Mike Strantz explained, this was a predominantly open site, much of which had been cleared for agriculture.  Designing small features within such a broad expanse would not have worked, he said, and once you've seen the site you understand that he is absolutely right.  Plus, as has been stated above, the course was designed to play in the constant and most times significant wind that sweeps across the site off of the bay and the Atlantic Ocean.  Pete Dye did much the same thing when he built wide fairways at The Ocean Course.

Because the wind is always changing, both in intensity and direction, along the oceanfront and because Bulls Bay requires the player to constantly play to a different compass point (only two consecutie holes, 4-5, play in the same direction), the course needed to be wide.  Obviously, with width comes a certain degree of forgiveness, but in a 30-mph wind, you need that.  And forgiving or not, the fairways at Bulls Bay still place a premium on placement, since certain angles are more advantageous than others, depending on wind, pin placement and contours.

Width also provides optional routes of attack, something Mackenzie championed and a design characteristic Strantz has embraced throughout his career.  Ron Whitten even wrote one time in Golf World that "Not since Mackenzie sketched diagrams of par 4s that were as wide as they were long, and could be played three ways, has any architect shown the chutzpah to let his imagination run wherever the land would take it."  That's exactly what Mike did at Bulls Bay.

But again, the design is a function of the site and the wind.  And it's the wind that makes the course so much fun to play.  A par-five that is a true three-shot hole one day can be a drive and a medium or even short iron the next.  And a par-four that was a drive and a pitch one day can require a long-iron approach the next. But even downwind, there is the challenge holding the green, so most greens are designed to accept a variety of shots.

Presently, the course is still undergoing some fine tuning.  For example, back tees at the par-four 16th are yet to be built and the clubhouse is under construction (completion expected around the first of the year or shortly after).  But even as the tweaking is continuing, we're having a blast playing Bulls Bay. And since Mike and design associate Forrest Fezler live right at the course, I suspect the tweaking will continue for years to come, much like Ross at No. 2 or Mackenzie at Pasatiempo.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2002, 08:36:48 AM »
Actually, I haven't played either Briar's Creek or Bull's Bay.  However, I know both the PR people who handle those courses to let them know that there's interest on this site.  I know one is trying to log on but is having technical difficulties.  And, I planted some pretty heavy hints that they should get me out to those venues ASAP.  As for Seabrook, yes, there are two courses out there -- Crooked Oaks by Robert Trent Jones, Sr. and Ocean Winds by William Byrd.  Again, I haven't played them which I blame myself because on of the Superintendants lives down the street from me and one of his assistants is my next door neighbor.  One or both of the courses (I'm not sure) has bent grass on the greens with Augusta-style heating and cooling piping running beneath the suface to keep the grass alive in the hot Carolina summers...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2002, 09:06:02 AM »
Reid -

Welcome. Great first post. I hope you will jump in often.

In light of your comments, I can't wait to get to Bulls Bay.

Bob

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

rnpgolf

Re: Bulls Bay, Charleston, SC
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2002, 12:18:48 PM »
Turboe,

To flesh out what Mike told you about Seabrook, the Jones course (Crooked Oaks) has bent greens -- the only bent in the Charleston area.  Ocean Winds has bermuda.  Crooked Oaks is a solid golf course.  The par-four fourth hole is probably the most recognized -- I hate the word signature -- hole on the course since it is used in many of Seabrook's brochures and ads.  It's a 'S' shaped hole with marsh filling the top loop of the S, separating landing area from green.  But there are a lot of good holes on the course.  

Like many RTJSr. designs, the course has some elevated greens, but unlike The Dunes, there aren't 16 or 17 of them.  Actually, several of the greensites have been left at grade, especially where water or marsh frames one side, like at the 4th, 11th and 18th.

It's really a good golf course.  The only problem at Seabrook can be getting through the gate.

Reid
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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