An OB Stigma in the US?

[Tim Bert]

Kyle, I was responding specifically to your comment that I've quoted here.  

As per usual, Mike Cirba gets what I'm saying.


OB is criticized for being artificial and contrived... yet random plots of sand placed in an area where sand doesn't randomly expose itself naturally isn't? Come on here guys, let's drop the hypocrisies.

I agree with the general point of the thread, but not with this statement.  I don't think that OB is artificial or contrived if it deals with the boundaries of the course's property.

Still, to expand on my position even further I don't think you and I are in agreement that architects should seek out opportunities to bring natural OB into play.  If there is a "too good to miss" positioning of OB that enhances the golf experience then that is fine.  I don't think that architects should go searching to bring it into play given the severity of the penalty unless it is a no-brainer.

[Kyle Harris]

Tim,

I don't necessarily think the architect should seek it out in all instances, but how many times have boundaries or near-boundaries been relegated to a purely penal stand point and not given any strategic merit?

How often are holes just absent-mindedly routed along the boundary? Snap hook one and you're OB... come close to the fence but in bounds and you have no advantage over a player who aimed 40 yards right of you... that sort of thing. When it is a necessary evil, why not use it?

I think it's a far more credible and exciting use of OB to provide a path between some bunker and the OB stakes that gives the golfer some advantage (see: Talking Stick example) or challenging the OB stakes directly (kinda like the Road Hole) to gain the angle.

Both holes provide safer options, but both holes offer the temptation.

[Andy Troeger]

Kyle,
No matter how you use it, I just think the penalty is too steep. I'd rather see bunkers or water used where there's some recovery option. I hate re-load situations above all else.

The 2-3 situations I've seen of doglegs with OB are all terrible holes. Two of them require hitting over a house (or at least the yard of the house), the other has trees protecting a house. Maybe in Europe its better since some of those OB situations don't seem to have anything else in the way.

If #2 at Talking Stick is as good as it gets with OB, I'll pass. I think we're just going to have to settle for differing opinions

[Jim Johnson]

Kyle, I agree with Andy, I too believe that the penalty for going OB is just too harsh. Whether OB is being used well enough is anyone's guess; just change the darn penalty for it.

I played at our local muni the other day; eagled the 10th hole, came to the 11th, a par-4 of 400+ yards, elevated tee but the landing zone is flat and then plays uphill to a sloping green. I sliced my tee shot one yard out of bounds, played a provisional, and ended up taking a triple bogey. The OB on the right is the property fence along the access road, and runs parallel the length of that hole and the next hole. There is absolutely zero strategy involved with the OB, other than to aim slightly more to the left than normal ,for slicers  

My provisional tee shot ended up about 5 yards to the left of my OB ball. I hit my 4th toward the green, chipped on, and two-putted for a 7. If the penalty was simply a drop where I entered the OB, I would have been hitting 3 to the green and at least would have had some hope of saving a par, or bogey. The way it is, I'm hitting a 200+ yard shot as my 4th (par) stroke.

Just too severe a penalty, IMO.

JJ

[Kyle Harris]

JJ,

I believe you are confusing strategy with recoverability. There is as much strategy involved with OB as there are with any other hazards - it's how much the penalty of OB factors into that strategy that is different.

How does OB differ from any potential lost ball situations found inside a golf course?

What if in aiming slightly more to the right you are aiming more toward a bunker, but in aiming way right, you are clear of everything but have a much difficult shot - that's strategy in my book, and the OB had a major factor in that.

The OB is visible, the penalty is known... how is it unfair or too severe? It's just a weighty test of guts and execution and serves as a change of pace from water or sand. I don't want holes lined with OB, I just want thoughtful use of OB as a change of pace during a round every now and then...

Here's how OB has been misued in my opinion, at the 12th at Makefield Highlands near Yardley, PA. A decent Rick Jacobson design.

The downhill par 5 is very reachable, and the more to the right the golfer goes the angle to reach in two becomes less favorable. And yes, the bunkers compound the "correct side" of the fairway, however, creating an alley by moving the bunkers 20 yards to the right and allowing the golfer to choose his method of attack by using the OB to up the stakes would be a better method, IMO.

The tee shot:


Just over the hill, 230 or so out:


Same spot as above, just zoomed to show the green site:


In this example, there is room to shift the fairway corridor right to provide an ample bail out to the right and a 25-30 yard wide alley between the bunkers and OB.

This type of neglect of OB has been the rule for far too long.

[Andy Troeger]

Kyle,
You're certainly correct in that OB has strategic merit. I might not like the penalty, but it certainly gets in the mind of the player. There's nothing I would call unfair about it.

The severity of it is the stroke and distance penalty.

Without having played the hole you are showing, I would bail away from the OB no matter where you put the bunkers. I'm admittedly not a straight driver even for a low handicap, but the risk of OB is almost never worth the reward.

Unless of course you put it in both sides and play bowling alley golf, then you might as well challenge it    I know that's not what you mean. I tend to avoid those courses entirely.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
You're certainly correct in that OB has strategic merit. I might not like the penalty, but it certainly gets in the mind of the player. There's nothing I would call unfair about it.

The severity of it is the stroke and distance penalty.

Without having played the hole you are showing, I would bail away from the OB no matter where you put the bunkers. I'm admittedly not a straight driver even for a low handicap, but the risk of OB is almost never worth the reward.

Unless of course you put it in both sides and play bowling alley golf, then you might as well challenge it    I know that's not what you mean. I tend to avoid those courses entirely.

I live in Florida... I can't...  

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

I agree re: 1st at Carnoustie... that just seems extremely silly.

I think 18 at Carnoustie would be much better if the fairway were cut further left to the burn (where Sergio put his tee shot during the playoff), then just leave the OB down the left. That way, you can hit a tee shot that has you challenging the burn to get an angle away from the OB on the approach.

[Jim Johnson]

Kyle,

As I mentioned in post #28 above, there is zero strategy brought into play with the use of OB on that particular hole as noted, other than for slicers to aim further left. Picture a straightaway 400+ yard hole, with OB paralleling the right edge of the fairway some 10-15 yards from the edge, the entire length of the hole. The hole does not dogleg, curve, or meander in any way, it is as straight as an arrow. OB does not dictate any strategy whatsoever on this golf hole, other than to tell golfers(slicers) to aim further left than normal. Well, gawd, trees on other holes do that just as well. I would question the original design of the course (supposedly a Stanley Thompson design, if you can believe that) in paralleling OB in the first place...it is on this hole, the next hole (a 330-yarder), the hole after that (a 240-yarder over water), and geez, the hole after that also. Four holes in a row, all with OB just to the right of the fairway/green.

What I am not enamored with is the severity of the penalty. In my opinion it is too severe for what transpires, at least in this particular instance, and I know there are many, many others similar to this. I can't speak for others but I've thought for a long time now that we should all be able just to hit that little white thing around, instead of digging into the pocket on our bag for another one, after smashing it OB. Give me a sand bunker any day, even a sod-walled one.  

JJ

[Kyle Harris]

JJ,

Your hole exists in the form of the 16th at St. Andrews, and the combination of the Principal's Nose and the OB to the right makes the strategy of the hole.

I agree, no ONE hazard dictates strategy on a golf hole, only in concert with other hazards/features is strategy made. This is true of any hazards though, and to pull OB out of context and say it doesn't contribute to the strategy of the hole is a non-sequitor.

To quote Tom Doak from "Anatomy of a Golf Course..."

"For the accomplished players, the key to the hole is the greenm oriented so that the approach is much easier from the right, where the hole is bordered by out-of-bounds.

Furthermore:

"Though bunkers and water are the only situations defined as hazards by the Rules of Golf, there are many other situations 'through the green' requiring the golfer to alter his normal shot in some way, that can be used by the architect in setting the strategy of the hole. These include: out-of-bounds, topopgraphy, mounds..."

I added the emphasis. Doak does go on to say that architects typically avoid OB as a hazard because of the harshness, but then cites numerous examples where OB is welcome as a hazard. It is those latter situations that I'd like to see more. Hoylake and St. Andrews seem to be the best examples I've found to date.

Instead of focusing on instances where OB is abused (and there are instances where bunkers, water, and mounding are abused too), let's focus on the instances where it does add interest and strategy.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, Do you know of a course with OB in front of the green, or were you just on a linguistic roll there?

Doug,

No, I had been at a John Mayer concert and was pretty toasted when I posted.  

[Mike_Cirba]

p.s....I think I signed up to go to the Dixie Cup, as well.

Wait til Jenna finds out.  

[Tim Bert]

p.s....I think I signed up to go to the Dixie Cup, as well.

Wait til Jenna finds out.  

I hope you mailed the check as well because you are definitely in along with a bunch of other lefties!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tim,

I'll be there.   I just need to figure out how to break the news at home.  

[Dan Herrmann]

To me, OB should only be used to stake the property limits of the course.  Internal OB is pretty goofy, even if it's to protect an adjacent fairway.

[TEPaul]

I think OB, particularly strategic OB of the type of Merion and Carnoustie is just fine. In a sense it seems to be a feature of "old golf".

However, I do not think that OB should be unnecessarily used in golf and architecture as a feature when it is not physically necessary on a site.

Internal OB should be avoided at almost all costs. In my opinion OB should only be what it was originally done for---eg to prohibit play on ground that is not part of the club's property.

Like most things in golf OB originally had a very logical reason and purpose.  

[JSlonis]

I'll come out and say it: I think OB is underused as a hazard.

While OB is the most punitive of the "hard" hazards (same as a lost ball, but that's not a hazard) why isn't it used as a more strategic hazard, especially on US courses?

One of the things I like about the 6th and 18th tee at Carnoustie is how the tee is pushed right up against the OB fence and that a golfer can reasonable set up parallel to the OB stakes on 6 for the ideal line, or aim away and take the possibility of going OB completely out of play. It's a mental hazard as well as a strategic one.

I also like how the 14th at Merion has the OB right in play to gain an ideal line into the green. Again, it's the option of the player and serves as much more effective hazard than a bunker or deep rough would.

Kyle,

The OB on the 14th at Merion is farther out of play now that the fairway has been shifted so far to the right toward the bunkers.  I agree that a line down the left would be a better angle toward the green, but unfortunately, that line is not an option because it is covered with very high rough.  I'd love to left side extended back and brought back to fairway.  Like Ogilvy stated in the thread that I just posted, it is far more interesting to stand on the tee with options than to just have the option dictated to you.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike / Doug / Jeff:

Regarding OOB in front of a green, the only instance I can recall is the 18th at Ganton in England, a long par 4.  A public road crosses about 40 yards in front of the green, and if you wind up in the road or on the shoulder (marked by stakes), you're out of bounds!!!  It's one of the stangest course markings I've seen anywhere.

Not really "in front of" the green, but one of the best OB hazards I've seen is on the fourth at St. Enodoc in England, a 275-yard par 4.  You hit diagonally across the corner of an out-of-bounds pasture marked by a stone wall on the right -- much like the tee shot on the Road hole, but completely visible.  There is a deep bunker left front of the green with an open approach on the right, so you can go for that opening from the tee, but to go for it, you have to carry 200 yards over the OB and flirt with the OB right after that.  It's one of my favorite golf holes in England.

[tlavin]

I'd agree that there's not a lot of stupid OB in the States like the wacky stuff at Carnoustie and the other oddities that one finds on old courses across the pond, but I've seen plenty of stupid OB where your ball is eight inches into some millionaires back yard and you can't hit it.

Heck, while we're at it, I think the OB penalty of stroke AND distance is plenty stupid too.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

The only time I was at Trevose, it was about to snow, so I didn't walk the course.  So, you may be right about that hole.  However, the field on the fourth at St. Enodoc does come down to a corner about 75-100 yards in front of the tee, as I remember it.

[Dan Herrmann]

Come on Tom - You live in Traverse City for cryin' out loud - A little snow shoudn't stop you

(I caught holy heck for saying it was too cold to play this winter when it was 36F.  My friends knew I was from Buffalo)

[Doug Siebert]

Mike / Doug / Jeff:

Regarding OOB in front of a green, the only instance I can recall is the 18th at Ganton in England, a long par 4.  A public road crosses about 40 yards in front of the green, and if you wind up in the road or on the shoulder (marked by stakes), you're out of bounds!!!  It's one of the stangest course markings I've seen anywhere.

Not really "in front of" the green, but one of the best OB hazards I've seen is on the fourth at St. Enodoc in England, a 275-yard par 4.  You hit diagonally across the corner of an out-of-bounds pasture marked by a stone wall on the right -- much like the tee shot on the Road hole, but completely visible.  There is a deep bunker left front of the green with an open approach on the right, so you can go for that opening from the tee, but to go for it, you have to carry 200 yards over the OB and flirt with the OB right after that.  It's one of my favorite golf holes in England.

I wonder how golf architecture would be different today if Granny Clark's Wynd on TOC's 18th was similarly OB.  Would it be normal for courses crossed by paths or roads to mark them OB?

Your second example sounds like a lot of holes I know that use OB as a cape type hazard or carry hazard.  I think that's a great use of OB.

I think there's even a role for internal OB on this cape/carry type of hole.  Obviously you can't do this if it means golfers will be flying balls into other golfers when they fail to make the shot, so it isn't an option when the OB is done to protect golfers on other holes.  I can think of one great example on a local course where there is high unmaintained grass on the dogleg of a long par 5 where you'd almost certainly lose the ball anyway (because you can't see the landing area from the tee, so you'd just be guessing where to look) so it saves time making it OB.

It is a 300 yard (downhill) carry over the corner, getting longer the further left you go, so it isn't an option most will take and generally won't come into play for those playing the hole normally so the average golfer rarely encounters it and won't have a problem with it.  It really adds to the strategy on the hole for better players and I take a somewhat different line there almost every time depending on the wind and how I'm hitting the ball that day.  I honestly think I'd be less aggressive there if it wasn't OB because it is so annoying to spend 5 minutes beating the grass in a fruitless search for the ball.

[Rich Goodale]

For those of you confounded by the OB to the left of 1 and 18 at Carnoustie, there is a very simple reason for it--it demarcates the line between the Championship links and the two other courses on the property (the Buddon--for the 1st) and the Burnside--for the 18th).

It is for exactly the same reason that most of the Old Course is OB on the right going out (New Course) and on the left coming back in (Eden Course).  Of course it didn't stop the R&A from putting a few new Championship tees on those bordering courses.....

...which makes me wonder.  Are these holes (9 and 14) the only ones in the world with OB directly in front of the tee?

Oh yeah, and another thought.  The back tee at the 2nd at TOC now requires a carry over the Himalyas putting green.  A bad miss could leave the player hitting his second from this green, which would require permission from the Ladies Putting Club and probably invove a REALLY awkward stance.  Or, is (are?) the Himalyas OB?

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

There is a putting green to the left of the 18th green which is protected by the OB, which really shouldn't come into play (did anybody go OB left there last week?).  As for the 8th and the, 1st the OB lines on those two holes have "always" been so.  I doubt if the course would have been any better if they were moved.  You know (or should know) on the 1st tee that it is OB and not LWH on the left, so if you pull a Tiger, you only have yourself to blame....

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

The OB fence on 18 was there before the Open and it will be there after the Open.  The fact that they chose to put the grandstand outside of it is irrelevant, as is your comment on my "Tiger" comment.  Shape up sailor!