Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?

[Jordan Wall]

Great (meaning, tournament-changing) things did happen on the 18th at Carnoustie, and not all of it was done by Van de Velde. Lawrie birdied the hole in regulation to finish off his great clutch round of 67. He birdied it again in the playoff. The short-hitting Leonard, thinking he needed birdie on the 18th in regulation to even remotely smell a playoff, put his 2nd shot in the drink and ended up bogeying (a layup and simple up-and-down for par -- easier for a great wedge player like Leonard than him trying to carry the burn -- would've won the tourney). Van de Velde's strategy in messing up the last hole was partly a result of the hole's design.

Exactly.

I'm not trying to say its the best finishing hole in golf, rather that it is the best in championship golf.

I've already thrown out my reasons of why I think that but I think Phil has validated my thinking.  

Plus, that proves a 3 is possible, Kyle.
 

[John Kavanaugh]

Given the natural amphitheater seating The Riviera has the best 18th hole in championship golf.  

Torrey Pines South may be the most exciting purely from a how many does it take to get in the hole perspective.

Valhalla provided the greatest personal thrill when trying to figure out how Tiger's ball made it down that hill.

I won't say which hole is the worst but it's bunkering does speak to something being missing.

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

Where did I say it was impossible?

In Craps... rolling a 12 isn't impossible... just not good gambling to take the 30-1 payout on the boxcars against 36-1 odds.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Where did I say it was impossible?

In Craps... rolling a 12 isn't impossible... just not good gambling to take the 30-1 payout on the boxcars against 36-1 odds.

Kyle,

You never said it was impossible.
I was just giving you a hard time after you mentioned the two birdies all day, and Lawrie birdied it twice in a row whe conditions were even tougher.  I had to give you some kind of a hard time, eh.
 

Just curious, what do you consider the best finishing hole in championship golf?

[Garland Bayley]

...
Last time the Open was at Carnoustie Jean Van de Velde made his infamous 7.  A month ago Tiger hit an eight iron to 20 feet at Oakmont while all of America sat on their seats to see if he could be a hero, again.  Though it didn't happen, that was certainly thrilling.  I doubt think there is any doubt about Van de Velde.
...

What's the deal Jordan? Are you going Mucci on us?

Carnoustie was not thrilling. People were aghast. You must be a NASCAR fan going to races to see the wrecks!

Oakmont was no more thrilling then you see every week on tour. Even less so, because it was 90% sure no one was going to birdie the last to force a playoff.

It was no more thrilling than Tom and Jack playing the final at Pebble. It was no more thrilling than Tiger playing the last at Pebble to set the record.

[Garland Bayley]

...
How do I phrase things?
As far as I am concerned, Carnoustie offers a great and exciting finishing hole because any score from 3 to 7 is possible, no?  Plus all the options and routes to play the hole.  With ob, the burn, and huge bunkers, it really makes even the best players in the game think of how to play it.  Thats great by my definition.
...

You equated thrilling finish with greatness as you are making claims for the hole where the least thrilling finish happened to be recognized as the greatest.

So what's the deal with score from 3 to 7. Get quick at Pebble and you can dump your first and second into the Pacific Ocean, or in the case of Phil, block it out there. It's easy to make 7 there. With great play, and not so much luck as is required at Carnasty, you can make 3 at PB.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Perhaps I will answer your question if you find some justification for it, in particular with your nomination of Carnoustie.

Sure.

Consider these reasons:

- As proven, any score from a 3 to 7 is possible and realistic.
- There are many routes to play the hole.  
- The hole rewards great shots.
- The hole penalizes bad shots
- The hole offers interesting recovery options, ranging from playing the ball from a burn to playing the ball from long grass, to playing out of deep bunkers.  Or, quite simply, playing a ticklish pitch from the fairway short or right of the hole.

Your reasons are true for countless holes on the face of the earth. Here's the deal Jordan. Find one reputable source that names Carnoustie the greatest 18th on earth. If you can do that, then you will have matched what I posted earlier. You will have shown it is great, and we know it is on a championship course. Until that we know PB 18 is great and it is on a championship course. Carnasty can't match it.

[Garland Bayley]

...

Wayne,

Those are probably all great finishing holes, but I mean to talk about finishing holes in relation to major championships.  Aside from Merion, I dont think any of those courses have held a major.  Nonetheless, who can forget Hogan's 1-iron to a foot at Merion?  An infamous shot!

Get back to your studies of major championships.
Corey Pavin's thrilling finish at Shinnecock trumps Oakmont and Carnoustie.
Arnold thrilling round at Cherry Hills trumps Oakmont and Carnoustie.

[Glenn Spencer]

...
Why does Pebble have the best finishing hole in Championship golf?
When was the last time a major came down to the last hole at Pebble and something thrilling happened?
...

When was the last time a major came down to the last hole at Carnoustie or Oakmont and something thrilling happened?

Last time the Open was at Carnoustie Jean Van de Velde made his infamous 7.  A month ago Tiger hit an eight iron to 20 feet at Oakmont while all of America sat on their seats to see if he could be a hero, again.  Though it didn't happen, that was certainly thrilling.  I doubt think there is any doubt about Van de Velde.

Carnoustie has the distinction of having something disgusting happen. By the way you phrase things, that makes it the worst finishing hole in championship golf.

How do I phrase things?
As far as I am concerned, Carnoustie offers a great and exciting finishing hole because any score from 3 to 7 is possible, no?  Plus all the options and routes to play the hole.  With ob, the burn, and huge bunkers, it really makes even the best players in the game think of how to play it.  Thats great by my definition.

Perhaps I will answer your question if you find some justification for it, in particular with your nomination of Carnoustie.

Sure.

Consider these reasons:

- As proven, any score from a 3 to 7 is possible and realistic.
- There are many routes to play the hole.  
- The hole rewards great shots.
- The hole penalizes bad shots
- The hole offers interesting recovery options, ranging from playing the ball from a burn to playing the ball from long grass, to playing out of deep bunkers.  Or, quite simply, playing a ticklish pitch from the fairway short or right of the hole.

Kyle,

Considering, in relation to par, the hole plays more like a par-5 anyways, I think 3's should only be rewarded with great shots.  Considering there are only two 3's recorded so far on the hole today, this means the hole is defending itself well, yet proving that a great shot can end up with a 3.  Yet, poor shots can end up with a 5.  Its a major championship, and it does not surprise me that there are a lot of 5's.  It just proves the hole provides a great test.

As far as precise execution, these are the best players in the world, so precision for their golf shots is a lot different than for the average player.  If someone plays the hole with immense precision, hitting good shots, then a 3 is surely possible.  I disagree about the angle of attack to the hole too.  The closer the drive is to the rough on the left, the better the angle, no?

And, I dont doubt the effectiveness of Pebble's finish, I just question it as being the best finishing hole in all of Championship golf.


Wayne,

Those are probably all great finishing holes, but I mean to talk about finishing holes in relation to major championships.  Aside from Merion, I dont think any of those courses have held a major.  Nonetheless, who can forget Hogan's 1-iron to a foot at Merion?  An infamous shot!

Well, apparently you can forget the shot. Hogan made 4 at 18 in 1950 and it was more like 20 feet. It was anything but infamous.

[Glenn Spencer]

I hardly even remember the 18th at Carnoustie, that is how much I thought of it. I will take the 18th at Muirfield all day over that hole. I like the course, but 18 is not a great hole in my book. Kyle's definition of a championship closer suits me just fine. Birdie should be a practical option.

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

A word of advice: try to avoid using superlatives when describing golf holes. The amount of courses in the world make it nigh on impossible to make that decision. I don't even think someone with the course study experience of Tom Doak would go so far. It's okay to have favorites, but to claim one hole the best over another is just silly.

That being said, I don't know if I have a favorite finish in championship golf. I've played one "championship" finish hole (18th at Bethpage Black) and I can name at least a dozen closers I prefer to that one (including its neighbor on the Red Course).

My favorite closing hole is actually the one at the course on which I learned the game: the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club, our local muni. At 330 yards, it's not a long brute and I've driven the green downwind. It's a sweeping dogleg right with the driving range down the right side and bunkers and a drop off down the left. I've hit anything from 4 iron to driver off the tee depending on the conditions and how my game was at the time. It's a simple finish that can bite you or let you finish with a birdie. In a hundred or so rounds there, I think I've birdied it a dozen times or so with pars being the majority.

Laugh all you want, I've centered it on google maps here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.219945,-75.112474&spn=0.004416,0.008669&t=k&z=17&om=1

[Patrick_Mucci]

Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean,

I like OB left of 18 green as a championship test.  It fits the challenge of the course.  What is it Hogan said? A hook doesn't kill you, fear of a hook does?  I like how OB must put into the pros' heads (somewhere in there) that fear.

And with the scary placement of water on that hole, let's face it, it's not a hole at all.  It's a gauntlet which must be run through by the champion.

Those who fail indeed are "run through!"

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, there is a road not too far over there, isn't there?

Philosophically and in a general sense I agree with you, but -- I wish I could articulate it -- there's something just right about it there, on this hole, on this course.

If Carnoustie was a character in a movie we might curse him for running someone through so cleanly as does that OB, but would we question whether the behavior is "in character?"

It's like Martin Landau's character at the end of "North by Northwest" when Cary Grant pleads for help.  We hate Landau for what he did, but we can't say we're surprised.

Mark

[wsmorrison]

"Those are probably all great finishing holes, but I mean to talk about finishing holes in relation to major championships.  Aside from Merion, I dont think any of those courses have held a major.  Nonetheless, who can forget Hogan's 1-iron to a foot at Merion?  An infamous shot!"

Jordan,

I think you should realize that Shinnecock Hills and Cherry Hills have had major championships.  Rolling Green had the 1976 Women's Open.  The Walker Cup was played at NGLA, Kittansett and Pine Valley.  Their 18th holes are so outstanding that I elected to select them even though one of the 4 majors have not been played on any of them.  Each one of these holes are the equal or better of the 18th at Carnoustie.  I revised my post and took out Lancaster CC.  The USGA should hold a major there, in my opinion.  Given that it has not hosted one, I removed it from my list.

Now, please tell me in what way Hogan's famous shot on Merion East's 18th is "infamous."  By the way, the date on the stone marker is wrong.  It has the Sunday date rather than the Saturday date as it was the custom to play 36 holes on championship Saturday.

[Jordan Wall]

"Those are probably all great finishing holes, but I mean to talk about finishing holes in relation to major championships.  Aside from Merion, I dont think any of those courses have held a major.  Nonetheless, who can forget Hogan's 1-iron to a foot at Merion?  An infamous shot!"

Jordan,

I think you should realize that Shinnecock Hills and Cherry Hills have had major championships.  Rolling Green had the 1976 Women's Open.  The Walker Cup was played at NGLA, Kittansett and Pine Valley.  Their 18th holes are so outstanding that I elected to select them even though one of the 4 majors have not been played on any of them.  Each one of these holes are the equal or better of the 18th at Carnoustie.  I revised my post and took out Lancaster CC.  The USGA should hold a major there, in my opinion.  Given that it has not hosted one, I removed it from my list.

Now, please tell me in what way Hogan's famous shot on Merion East's 18th is "infamous."  By the way, the date on the stone marker is wrong.  It has the Sunday date rather than the Saturday date as it was the custom to play 36 holes on championship Saturday.

Wayne,

I dont know what I was thinking.  It shuld have been obvious that Palmer had his big comeback at Cherry Hills, and of course Shinnecock.  I dont even know what I was thinking!

As for Hogan's 1-iron, I know about and have heard a lot about it though I wasn't even close to being alive in 51' (that was the year right?).  Plus, I have seen pictures of the plaque in the fairway.  Anyway, I'd say it's a pretty famous shot, but you can decide for yourself if you think its infamous.  Being it's Hogan and arguably his most famous shot, I'd call it infamous.
 

Just out of curiosity, I hear a lot about NGLA's finishing hole.
Is that your favorite, or what you would consider the best finishing hole out of those which you mentioned?

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

Look up infamous. Please. If anything, considering Hogan's circumstances at that time, the shot is anything but infamous... I'd say that Mangrum and G. Fazio were even happy for him.

As for the 18th at Lancaster... I can only say that it's one of the handful of holes that literally took my breath away the first time I saw it from the tee (and I didn't even get to play it, but the 11th and 18th tees are shared).

Lancaster may be one of the five most under-the-radar courses in the country.

[wsmorrison]

Jordan,

NGLA's finishing hole is quite good, that is why I included it.  It is, in my opinion, not so fine a finish as Merion (my favorite finishing hole--in fact 14-18 is the best finish in golf)but surely is included in a list with Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Kittansett and Cherry Hills.  Also, as Kyle said, the definitions of infamous should not include your characterization of Hogan's shot.

Kyle,

I know one rater that doesn't think much of the finish at Lancaster.  I do.  I also know that it is not under consideration for most lists, but it should be.  It could successfully host any championship other than a US Open and I hope it gets a chance someday soon.  Like many top-tier Flynn's, it is exceptional with a strong par 4 finish.

I don't think Fazio and Mangrum were all that happy.  Gentlemen assuredly, but happy?  They wanted to WIN and Hogan was the favorite to do so.

[Garland Bayley]

 

Bogey and double bogey for a "thrilling"   finish.

Not thrilling in my book.

[Joe Hancock]

Bogey and double bogey for a "thrilling"   finish.

Not thrilling in my book.

You've never gotten a thrill from beating an opponent on a tough finishing hole with a bogey over his double?

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

Membership has clouded your judgement  

The green alone, sitting high up on the plateau at NGLA make it a far more interesting and exciting finishing hole.

But, I understand your allegiance.

# 18 at Carnoustie doesn't lack for challenge and drama.

Let's not forget that some architectural features that can be ignored, dismissed or marginalized in casual rounds, become ferocious impediments and enormous brain drains in the finals of a significant competition.

[Kyle Harris]

I should have flown over Friday night and cut my fairway... something tells me Sergio and the Australian who shot 64 would have thanked me...  

[wsmorrison]

Aha.  I knew I'd be hearing from you Patrick    Well as they say, membership does have its privileges    Though I have long thought that way.  

A far more interesting and exciting finishing hole?  That is a bold statement.  Because the green sits upon a plateau?  In what way does the green sit so differently than Merion's green on its plateau with a lot more undulation preceding the green?  Merion's green has much more penal bunkering at the green opening left and right.  Merion's green, back to front for the front half and front to back for the back half, is far more interesting than NGLA's massive green.  Merion's final hole is nearly 500 yards, about the same as NGLA, right?   Though Merion's finish is a par 4 and NGLA a par 5.  Merion's 18th, from the back tee requires a 260 yard carry to reach the fairway (250 to clear the quarry).  It is a much more intense tee shot than NGLA since you don't need to hit driver given the cross bunkers 285 left and 290 right.  The stance you have on Merion's undulating fairway is more severe than that found at NGLA.  The wind component at NGLA can be a far greater factor than at Merion, though it seems to be either directly into the wind, making it play looooong or with the wind making it very difficult to hold the green.

But I do understand your allegiance  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

There's really no substantive FEAR factor on # 18 at Merion.

No water hazards close to the fairway and green, no narrow margins of error at the green, NO real WIND, and, there are NO level lies on #18 fairway in the DZ.

A shot hit wide right at Merion suffers very little in the way of consequences.

A shot hit long suffers very little in the way of consequences at Merion and a shot hit left doesn't leave the golfer with as difficult a shot at Merion.

# 18 at Merion is a wonderful hole, but, it ain't # 18 at NGLA.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayno,

There's really no substantive FEAR factor on # 18 at Merion.

No water hazards close to the fairway and green, no narrow margins of error at the green, NO real WIND, and, there are NO level lies on #18 fairway in the DZ.

A shot hit wide right at Merion suffers very little in the way of consequences.

A shot hit long suffers very little in the way of consequences at Merion and a shot hit left doesn't leave the golfer with as difficult a shot at Merion.

# 18 at Merion is a wonderful hole, but, it ain't # 18 at NGLA.

I suppose the 250 yard carry off the tee of the quarry doesn't mean much of anything...