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Ted Curtis

"Betting holes"/19th holes
« on: August 26, 2002, 07:44:11 AM »
I am a journalist working on a story on 19th holes -- the kind at the end of courses that architects add for use as betting holes (not the watering hole type...).

Anyone know courses -- particularly new courses (opened in the last 10 years) -- that have these 19th holes?

Thanks very much

Ted Curtis
Palm Beach Media Group
Palm Beach, FL
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2002, 07:56:00 AM »
P.B Dye's Black Bear in Eustis, FL.

Perry Dye's Walkabout in Mims, FL.
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AndyI

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2002, 08:01:07 AM »
Sounds novel, but back home we just call it the first.  ;D

Besides, Gambling is illeagal at Bushwood.
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Todd Reid

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2002, 08:26:45 AM »
You can look at two courses by Lester George in VA:

Kinloch in Richmond and Colonial in Williamsburg

Both have 19th Holes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Farrell

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2002, 08:58:29 AM »
Wykagyl CC has a 9th
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ted Curtis

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2002, 10:13:36 AM »
Thanks so much for such a quick response everyone.

I always know that this is the right place to come for answers...

Later

Ted Curtis
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lester George

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2002, 10:27:07 AM »

Ted,

I completed Kinloch Golf Club last year (Golf Digest #1 "Best New Private", GolfWeek #23, "Best Modern") with a par 3 19th Hole across water to settle bets.  My course in Williamsburg, The Colonial has a 3 hole practice facility.  We are seeing more clubs interested in having the extra hole, but I wouldn't say it is a trend yet.  You may also want to contact Mark Leslie, formerly of Golf Course News to discuss an article he did in 2000 about 19th holes.  Contact me directly if you want to discuss.  

Lester
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

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Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2002, 11:28:25 AM »
Adam..."and I NEVER slice!"  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Mark_Fine

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Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2002, 11:32:26 AM »
Ted,
Lehigh has a great one but it is not a modern design.  There was an extensive post on 19th holes a while back on this site.
Mark
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Jeff Mingay

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2002, 01:34:39 PM »
Tom Fazio's Forest Creek near Pinehurst, NC comes to mind.

And, for the record, we all know that Mackenzie incorporated a 19th into his original routing for Augusta National.

Scarboro near Toronto, whose original Geo. Cumming layout was remodelled by Tillinghast during the 1920s, also has a pretty neat 19th hole.
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Tom Doak

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2002, 05:26:10 AM »
Ted,

We have a course in planning with a 19th hole:  The Crest, a new private club in Palm Desert.

Basically, there is a great natural site for a par-3 hole right by the start of the golf course, but the clients didn't want me to use it as either the first hole or the eighteenth.  (The course will not return to the clubhouse at the ninth.)  So, the 19th was the only option left.

It's not your typical 19th hole:  200 yards with rock outcroppings in various spots around the green.  It might have been a bit fluky as the 18th hole (you push your tee shot and the ball caroms off a rock into oblivion), but it will be great fun.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about it.
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RJ_Daley

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Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2002, 08:43:20 AM »
Quote
It's not your typical 19th hole:  200 yards with rock outcroppings in various spots around the green.  It might have been a bit fluky as the 18th hole (you push your tee shot and the ball caroms off a rock into oblivion), but it will be great fun.

Tom, I fail to see how any shot towards any green that has a structure harder than my head and carooms off "into oblivion" is good golf course design.  i.e., brick, rock, cement walls, rock outcroppings, RR ties, etc.  Now if the caroom will yield at least a shot with plausible recovery, then maybe I can go along with it.  Doesn't oblivion effectively mean a termination of continuity of play at that point?  Oh sure, one can drop from the original point where the shot to oblivion originated, or if oblivion is somehow a lateral hazard and so forth one can follow those rules, but intentional design with hard features within the scope of slightly wayward green approaches leading to oblivion is not my cup of tea... :-/

But, I think an extra hole or two is a wonderful luxury not only for bets, but if set up right, for addressing the maintenance issue of taking a hole out of play for repair etc., or for practice, if set up right.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

SPDB1

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2002, 10:07:57 AM »
Dick -
I kind of like that effect, which places greater demands on the accuracy of the shot. Our own Doyen has just such a hole at his club, used to very cool effect. The #8 greensite at Gulph Mills was designed by Perry Maxwell, and is one of the most engaging on the course.  
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Chris_Blakely

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Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2002, 10:26:29 AM »
Legendary Run golf course, Cincinnati, Ohio has a 19th hole

http://www.legendaryrungolf.com/
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RJ_Daley

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Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2002, 10:40:12 AM »
Sean, here is my thinking on the matter of hard surface hazards or features that bounce into oblivion, and in this instance - a betting 19th hole.

Let's say we need to have a playoff, we played eqaully well or matched eachother's lack of skill for 18 holes of the match, however you want to look at it.  We go to a par 3 playoff hole that is as TD describes, 200 yards with rock outcroppings within the various parts of the green surrounds.  WE are both a bit anxious to win and would love to win based on superior play, (a fluk always deminishes one's enjoyment of a victory -wouldn't you agree).  We are both a bit nervous and both either push or pull the shot.  Both are equally off line and not well struck.  One "carooms into oblivion" the other lands where a shot to recover for an up and down, or even a chip to a place where two putt is likely.  Does that make for a satisfying ending?  I just think that a green should be surrounded with terrain or features that offer some chance, albeit slim, and one that requiries great skill and guts at potential recovery, in order to make a more interesting hole.

Obviously, if one of the contestants actually hits a superior shot next to the flag, or in, and the other is off line, there is little doubt that the best shot wins.  But, the luckier of two not so good shots (one to oblivion) isn't a desirable end to me.  I think that hard structures near greens tend to exasperate this potential to unfairly penalise one offline shot over the other.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2002, 06:38:40 PM »
In the spirit of the great packer above me. I am not sure this whole 19th hole thing is an architecture discussion. It is not apart of the course and I am ok with it in the spirit of freedom of assembly lol. But lets not get to deep into a gambling issue. A real match should be settled on the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ADX

Re: "Betting holes"/19th holes
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2002, 07:00:49 PM »
The Trophy Club in Lebanon Indiana

http://www.thetrophyclubgolf.com/

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re:
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2002, 08:37:26 PM »
Dick,
When you see the land TD is working with, the rock outcropping quote will make a little more sense. I don't know the exact spot TD is writing about, but that area is one big rock outcropping!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »