Arhcitectural Lineage

[Rick_Noyes]

I'm an architect for Dan Maples in Pinehurst.  Dan learned the craft from his father Ellis who in turn learned it from his father Frank.  Frank was the construction superintendent for Donald Ross and oversaw construction on Pinehurst's 1-4.  What are some other "lineages" out there?  Conections to Ross, Mackenzie, Raynor, Tillinghast?

[RJ_Daley]

I'm curious, are you asking this question to stimulate discussion on the subject of the long tradition of family golf course designers, or don't you actually know?

[John Foley]

The SI Golf Plus issue a few months back (June prior to the US Open) did a good job on some lineage tree's. I also beleive there was a thread on it.

Before that I never knew of Alan Robertson!

[John Foley]

The SI Golf Plus issue a few months back (June prior to the US Open) did a good job on some lineage tree's. I also beleive there was a thread on it.

Before that I never knew of Alan Robertson!

[Rick_Noyes]

I had an instructor in school that told me that if you want to learn about a particular architect, don't just study that individual, read what they read.  In other words, in order to learn about golf course arhcitects today, don't just study or analize their philosophies, learn where they came from.  What  or who were their architectural influences.  I do know there are alot of "family" trees out there, Fazio, Dye, Phelps, Matthews.  I'm not really asking about actual family trees, more along the lines of who worked for who (whom?) as it relates to architects from the "golden age" of architecture.

[RJ_Daley]

Fair enough...  I would begin the discussion with the influence of RB Harris and his list of proteges like Phelps, Packard, Nuggent, Spears and look at how many of them had their own sons and grandsons follow them into the biz. (not aware of any daughters yet).  And, many of those architects had design firms that also spawned many other non-family proteges that seem like they were family.  

What do they all have in common?  Most of them are greatly involved in their patriarch's efforts to have a professional society of GCAs.  Many of them have been past Presidents of ASGCA.  I don't think there is any doubt that the early proteges were very similar in their design styles and construction formulas.  Perhaps, the styles have diverged greatly in the last 20 years, but I do think the 50s through 70s body of work of this RB Harris lineage of family and collegial relationships are highly identifiable.  

[Rick_Noyes]

i do find that interesting.  We have some of Ross' plans here in the office and I was intriqued by that fact that we basically do plans that same way.  We do use the computer for the drafting, but I've found through looking at Ross', Ellis Maples and now Dan's that the principles are the same.  The drafting is even similar through the years.

[Brian Phillips]

Rick,

You had better not tell your boss to look at this thread especially as you have spelt the subject wrong..

Just joking...

Brian

[Rick_Noyes]

My boss is well aware that my hands don't always keep pace with my brain.

[David Wigler]

Rick,

The ASGCA has a document that traces the lineages of almost every one of their members.  It is facinating.  See if you can get your hands on a copy.

[TEPaul]

I think it's somewhat fascinating knowing what architectural lineage is regarding who worked for whom etc, but it's so much more fascinating picking out evidences of the styles and techniques of certain architects and figuring out where those ideas, styles and techniques may have emanated from.

I'll give some examples I'm coming to believe in.

We're starting to do some real in-depth research on William Flynn from most of his old course topo and individual hole drawings and there's a remarkable prevalence on some of greens that are complete islands in sand, of many fairways that are completely segmented, and also instances of large expanses of sandy wastes across holes and mound and bunker combos across one hole that was built but no longer exists.

There's no question in my mind that the greens that are "islands in sand" as well as the prevalence of "segmented" fairways came from Flynn's early exposure to Pine Valley through the Wilsons of Merion and maybe even an early PV member--George Thomas!

As far as I can see, the "segmented" fairways of Pine Valley was Crump's biggest departure from any early collaboration he may have had with H.S. Colt at Pine Valley as none of Colt's PV individual hole renderings have any of that. The "island greens in sand" also appear to be original Crump! Where Crump himself may have gotten these ideas is of course very interesting to speculate on!

The mound and bunker expanses across holes so notable on Shinnecock's #15 and one of Concord's holes appears to have been taken from Tillinghast!

Some of Flynn's individual hole "explanations" also called often for the architectural "undulating" of the sand floors on many of the vast expanses of sand he designed! These "undulating" sand floors on the enormous sand expanses can also be clearly seen in the early photos of PV--many of these "undulations" at PV no longer really exist!

And then, of course an individual hole drawing we came across for a hole at a course designed (probably never built) for the Opa Locka Company had an exact mirror image "concept copy" of The Lido's famous "channel hole"!

[Jeff Mingay]

Up here in Canada, it's kinda en vogue for native golf architects to somehow connect themselves with Stanley Thompson.

Thompson is noted as a "teacher" of sorts, having "tutored" Howard Watson, Robbie Robinson, Geoff Cornish, Bob Moote, and a few others. Funny though, I've never seen much of Thompson's brilliance glaring at me in the work of his "students". Perhaps it's poor observation on my part though? I don't presume to know it all.

Contemporary Canadian golf architects Tom McBroom and Doug Carrick are reported to be "connected" to Thompson through their apprenticeships with Robbie Robinson; although neither of them, to my knowledge, met "The Toronto Terror."

Graham Cooke's in the same boat, having worked under Howard Watson in Quebec years ago. And, I guess, David Moote is a "Thompson disciple" too, simply because his father is the aforementioned Bob.

Thinking about it, I guess I can "connect" myself to Pete Dye, and maybe even Bill Coore too, because that's where Rod Whitman learned the trade, and I work under Rod. But I won't. In fact, I've always thought it neat that Pete Dye started his own family tree. He doesn't "connect" to anyone "above him"... which puts Pete on the same level as Old Tom Morris    

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

You say you think Pete Dye started his own family tree in architecture and in a way it may appear so!

But I don't think so. If you really want to talk about "architectural lineage", Pete Dye would be the best example anywhere from anytime that truly exhibits an architectural lineage that could be said to be "atavistic" (atavistic meaning exhibiting characteristics of a remote ancestor with no semblence of those characteristics in intervening generations).

The fact is Pete was certainly the most responsible of any of the modern age architects, by far, for going to The Old Country and really analyzing what was there and bringing it back to the Modern Age of architecture!

But what did Pete become so fascinated by over there and what did he primarily bring back to modern architecture from the old country?

Did he bring back that striving to make architecture as natural looking as possible to the original naturally formed links courses that we saw in the desires and the products of some of the later "Golden Agers?

NO!

Pete seemed to become primarily fascinated with that time and interesting link between golf in it's original natural state and the first rudimentary attempts of the earliest so-called architects to enhance architecturally that natural state for golf! Things like crude "sleepers" and such and maybe even some of the clearly manufactured looking byproducts of those very early architectural efforts seem to be what Pete became fascinated by and intent on bringing back over here!

Pete seemed to be more fascinated in the beginings of architecture (man-made golf design efforts) than nature and golf's initial roll in it and with it!

In a way Pete may have found his lineage way before even someone like C.B MacDonald who seemed more interested in producing just great courses for golf even if apparently quite manufactured looking in some aspects.

It seems to me that those that tried hardest to meld golf back into nature itself didn't really perfect their techniques until the teens or just after WW1 and that striving and those techniques virtually exploded through to the beginning of the depression in the products coming out then!

But Pete seemed fascinated in jumping back over that time to a time when man-made architecture first began!

To me that's Pete's very interesting architectural lineage!

[Tom Doak]

Pete Dye always credited some of his education back to William Diddel, the venerable Indianapolis architect who recently passed away.  He never worked for him directly, though.

My position on the Pete Dye tree is easy to chart, but I would've been a small branch until recently; certainly there are a lot of guys who spent longer with Pete than myself, or Bill Coore either, for that matter.

[A_Clay_Man]

I recall some story about fairway irragation and how Pete's mentor refused to use it but advise Pete differently. Was that Diddle?

[Rick_Noyes]

Getting off the topic a bit...
Man-made vs. naturalistic - It seems that there are several ways one can go.  Since a golf course is obviously a manipulation of the natural form you can either relish or celebrate that manipulation (a la Desmond Muirhead), you can "disguise" it as much as possible or you can have a little of both.  I know our philosophy is more of a naturalizing and consequently our shapers work very hard to ensure that all the features "blend in" to the natural surroundings.  We want to make it look like it has always been there.  Dan tells a story about playing in the grand opening of the Maples course at Sea Trail in Sunset Beach NC.  He rode with a reporter and all day long the reporter kept telling Dan what a great piece of land he had to work with.  Dan said he listened for about 10 holes before telling the reporter that before he came there was nothing on that site at all.  Some even went so far as to question whether a course could even work on that site.  
That everything he was seeing was built.  I guess that would be a testatment to naturalizing.