[Jeff_Brauer]

Whitey,

I did in fact design Wild Horse in Davis.  About a year ago, we had a discussion about the course, and rerouting, prompted by Jeff Stettner's visit to the course.  It was a bit embarrassing, since I knew that EAGL had rerouted once, and consulted me, but apparently rerouted/numbered a few other times as well. That's okay, at least in my mind on this particular course, but the whole discussion made me sound like on of those architects who in fact was not on site enough to even remember hole numbers!

In fact, I did most of the field work myself, including edging all but a few of the bunkers myself.  I had to rush to the airport just after doing the green bunker on nine, and felt that was my worst effort, and always wondered if anyone else could tell?

As for leaving me off the emerging architects list, I assumed I was too old for that list anyway.  Golf World featured me as a "young lion" in 93-94 (?) but as I approach 47, my biggest problems are emerging waistlines and grey hairs! ;

Somehow, I don't think that is what this thread refers to.

[John_McMillan]

Scott -

A lot is known about the development of Whiskey Creek, since the story in Golf Digest.  The process was 2 guys had the idea for a golf course, selected a piece of property, and got an architect (not named in the Golf Digest article, but Lester George) to do the routing.  They didn't have the money to build the course, and spent a couple years looking for a way to get it done.  They finally hooked up with Kemper Sports Management, who "asked" that they find another architect.  Tom Doak was one that they interviewed at that stage, the other was Rees Jones (ego and egad in the Golf Digest article - though it's not clear which is which).  They ultimately hired Mike Poellot to do the course, but were partially locked into the Lester George Routing, since they had staked some land plots next to the course.  

[jim_lewis]

John:

In response to your question about Lester George, let me use this opportunity to repeat that my initial post was not intended to evaluate or rank architects. I would never do that after seeing only one or two of their courses. What I did rank were the courses that I have played in the past year that were designed by architects whose work I had not seen before. Given that small group of 11 courses, Kinloch, designed by Lester George is definitely in the top 3. I had never even heard of Lester until last summer when I played Starmount Forest in Greensboro, NC. Starmount is an old Perry Maxwell design, which has been recently restored by Lester. I was impressed by his restoration work, but he really got my attention when I played Kinloch (GD’s best new private).  That course is certainly deserving of the recognition it got from GD. What I don’t know is how much the design was influenced by Vinny Giles who collaborated on the project. I don’t know when I have seen a course that presents so many options off the tee. In fact, it is almost overdone. I am not ready to claim that Lester is a great architect, but based on what I have seen, I look forward to seeing more of his work, and I would recommend that he be a candidate for future projects.

I never intended that this thread become a ranking of “emerging” architects. Rather, I was hoping that we might identify some lesser-known architects that deserve some attention and discussion here. For me, the thread has already paid dividends. I have already collected names of 16 architects whose work I have not seen. Some are guys I’ve never even heard of. It will be a priority for me to try to play as many of their courses as I can in the future. It would be most helpful if when suggesting an architect, if the poster would specific courses, which impressed them.

[Stan Dodd]

Jeff,
Interesting!  Overall I really enjoy the green complexes, the long bunker shot recovery is not my favorite , but I know, don't get in them .  I think the current #4 is a wonderful short par 4, with many options, it forces you to think placement off the tee as the 2nd shot from the right is no bargain, particularly with a front pin.
It must have been some interesting work, with the Davis burrowing owl concerns.  
Just joined there and am attempting to get around without a 3 stab.  Like  the Walrus I changed putters because the last one didn't float.

[John_McMillan]

Jim,

I'm not trying to get into ranking architects either - but I'm still not certain what about George's course at Kinloch you enjoyed.  Could you describe a hole or two that you thought were particularly well done?  One problem I had with Whiskey Creek is that there were some good holes, and some very bad ones.  Did you think that Kinloch had a consistent balance?

[jim_lewis]

O.K. John, here goes.

First, is the terrain which offers a variety of natural features that the architect incorporated effectively into the routing.

Second, the club features golf only, no houses or other non-golf distractions.

Third, walking is encouraged and pretty comfortable considering the rolling terrain.

Fourth, at least four holes have split fairways which require a risk/reward decision on the tee.  Additionally, several other holes offer risk/reward options on the approach shots.

Fifth, there is extraordinary variety in the length, especially in the par threes and fours.


However, there are some weaknesses.

Number 15 is a short dogleg left par four with a large, thick tree in the fairway about 80 yards out. Loose the tree!

Number 9 is a mixed bag. It is a par 5 with a split fairway. The really long player can reach the green in two, but otherwise, a short or medium iron lay-up is required to stay short of a wetland. Seems a little busy or over-done to me.

There is a long distance between the 9th green and the 10th tee. A shuttle gets you from one to the other.

I worry about how the bent grass fairways will handle the summer heat and humidity. It may require frequent watering resulting in soft fairways.

If you don't walk, the course is cart path only because of the tender bent grass fairways.

These concerns are more than offset by the strengths of the course.


Dr. Brad Klein initiated a thread on this topic a few months ago. i am not sure how to pull it up.

I will be surprised if this course does not open pretty high in GOLFWEEK's next Top 100 Modern rankings.

[Tony Ristola]

To answer the original question, I'd say anyone who knows the game, construction and applies themselves by spending the time to produce quality work.

Not everyone will know who these people are, but with time they will emerge.

Ron:  When I read your stuff we tend to disagree a fair bit... and this is no exception.  I think discrimination is a good thing.  I think pointing out who has done excellent work and honoring it, even predicting it is a good thing, a great thing.  Discriminating between architect "A' and "B" elevates standards.  There's too much relativism in this world and not enough identification of individuals who've gone out, sucked it up and produced quality.  It's good to reflect the values you hold dear, and if it's not architect "X" or "Y" or whoever you might like...oh well.  Perhaps it will get you thinking, analyzing, striving.

Tell me, how do can "members of GCA ...encourage all "emerging architects" to do excellent work"?  By saying...oh please do good work guys?  Uh, uh.  By saying, hey I like this guys work because....and I think he'll be good because...  That's how you elevate standards, not by nice speak to the industry which is largely deaf.  As one architect posted here (paraphrasing) "50 internet guys who don't know much".

Ron, there are enough people here to visit a vast array of courses...I wouldn't say they're narrow in their view, but have narrowed down what they like.  Some are bandwagoners, "yes people", but that happens everywhere...and actually I see it far less here than anywhere in the golf architecture business.  You want to see the bandwagon...look at the major publications and listen to the broadcasts...this place is a breath of fresh air.  It discriminates and identifies and that's great.  There are no editors, no publicists, no "names" to suck up to or please on this forum...that's a large part of its strength. Identification and discrimination.

[cardyin2]

Jerry Pate has been working regionally--in Alabama and the Florida Panhandle, but he now is expanding his base--new courses in Bonita Springs, FL, Rancho La Quinta in California and a private course in Scottsdale.  He has a lot to offer.  His greens complexes are big and bold, he uses illusion to good effect and he certainly knows shot values.
Barry Serafin is a protege of Dr.Michael Hurdzan and has been on his own for seven or eight years out of Ohio.  He also has been working regionally, and I would highly recommend his New Albany Links for review.  Scioto Reserve in Powell, Ohio (north of Columbus) is another of his recent courses, a bit less interesting, in my view, than New Albany Links.
Mark Amundson designed Old Silo in Mt. Sterling, Ky. for Graham Marsh.  The routing is good, the bunkering is spectaciular, but the greens are a bit repetitive.  I'll look forward to more courses from him.
Tim Liddy,, a protege of Pete Dye, also has worked regionally on his own--mostly in Indiana.  His Trophy Club in Lebanon is terrific; the greens complexes are very sophisticated. Rock Hollow in Peru is a signature course that put him on our map, and he now is very busy either with new courses in Indiana or renovations.  His Cambridge course north of Evansville is his first big budget (about $5 millioin) course, and it is stunning.  About 270 bunkers.  Tim has been project manager for Dye on such courses as Colleton River and PGA at Ptr. St. Lucie, but he needs a chance to expand his base on his own.

[jim_lewis]

Cardyn2:

Yours is exactly the kind of post I was hoping to see on this thread. You told us who you liked, named specific courses, and told us what you liked (or didn't like) about them.

[RandyC]

John Harbottle

[Dunlop_White]

Jim,
I'm curious as to whether you know anything about Richard Mandell of Richard Mandell Golf Architecture in Pinehurst?

Kris Januzik at Tufts Archives gave Richard my name, and we had an intriguing conversation about golf course design the other day by phone. Interestingly, Brad Klein once suggested to me that architects, who have'nt quite made a name for themselves yet, will often do fabulous work in an effort to do so. Richard seems very knowledgeable and is eager to put forth that extra effort. Presently, he is working on the course at Beech Mountain in NC.  :-/ :-/

[YTT]

What about some credit for young Geoff Shackkelford?  This young man has already done an impressive redesign of Sineloa, and he is currently working on Rustic Canyon.  I predict that you will be hearing a lot more about him.

[ed_getka]

Todd Eckenrode based on his work at Barona Creek which is the only course of his I have seen thus far. Of the new courses I have played in the past 5 years, I rate Barona as one of the few that made a lasting impression along with Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Stevinson Ranch.
I have only played one Harbottle course (Stevinson), but I would seek out other courses of his based on that effort. Mike DeVries would also be on my list from what I've heard about Kingsley from a number of GCA guys and the renovation work at the Meadow Club that I saw.

All of these guys incorporate strategy into their courses, test your short game, good (Stevinson) to great (Barona) bunkering, excellent variety in their par 3's, imaginative contouring of their greens (not simply shelfs and well-defined greens within the green). Speaking of greens, Rustic Canyon has some of the best greens I've seen on a new course in some time in regards to contouring& tying in the green surrounds to test your short game. Barona Creek is in the same league with its greens/surrounds. I can't remember many rounds where I had so much to consider when chipping and pitching as at Barona.

Todd Eckenrode
John Harbottle
Mike DeVries
Gil Hanse/Jim Wagner/Geoff Shackleford (Rustic Canyon)

[jim_lewis]

Dunlop:

I have met Richard and his wife a few times, but I am not familiar with his work. Nor have I had any indepth conversations with him regarding architecture. I am impressed by both of them on a personal level but really am not qualified to comment on him professionally. I know that Ran has spent some time with Richard, but I don't know how much he learned about his design philosophy.  I met Richard about 10 years ago when he was working for Dan Maples. I then lost contact with him entirely until a couple of years ago.

[Tom Doak]

Just to set the record straight, I was offered the job at Whiskey Creek.  However, we were pretty busy, so I quoted them a high fee, and they wanted me to do it for less.  Then I asked whether they were willing to pay me as much as Ernie Els would make on the deal, and they refused to say how much that was, and that was that.

I think I have a pretty good idea what Mike Poellot's fee for the job was.

[Tom Doak]

As for emerging architects worthy of praise, I would agree with many of the names on here, and could offer several more.  I'm really impressed with how much talent is out there today ... which is one of the reasons behind Archipalooza.

Just among guys with whom I have worked in the past, no one said Scott Pool in Alabama, Ron Farris in South Dakota, or David Savic in Ohio [all members of the Long Cove construction crew, under superintendent Bobby Weed]; and there's also Russell Talley in Europe, and I'm sure a couple of others I'm forgetting just now.

However, I also think there's going to be a lot less jobs to go around for the next few years, and that it will be a lot tougher for these "emerging architects" than it was for me.  It took me 15-20 years to get to today; going forward, it will be a lot harder to hang around and learn the business for that long.  They'll have to be very determined to succeed -- and they'll have to be lucky enough to find the right projects to make them a success.

[Patrick_Mucci]

YTT,

How much of Rustic Canyon is Geoff's and how much is Gil Hanse's architectual imput ?

Is it a joint architectual project ?  Or, is there a lead architect with the other party consulting, if so, what's the mix ?

Collaboration can have very good results.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Just among guys with whom I have worked in the past, no one said Scott Pool in Alabama, Ron Farris in South Dakota

Tom,

Being a good old South Dakota boy I was wondering if you have any information on whether Ron Farris has a website.  I figured if anyone would know you mihgt.  I have done some searches in the past, but have not found it.  Also has he done some work with a Patric Wyss in SD?  I want to find out more information about these two.

Also as long as I am talking about the Dakota's I think you have to mention as "Emerging Architects who deserve our encouragement" North Dakota native Jim Engh.  I know some people were turned off by the glitz and glamor of his US debut with Sanctuary.  However everything that I have heard is that he is a magician at what he accomplishes on a budget, and I know I thought Hawktree in ND was a lot of fun.

[ET]

Archie Struthers - Twisted Dune
  Haven't played all mentioned (who could have?), but very familiar with TD.           Completely biased !

[Lester George]

Jim Lewis,

Thanks for your kind words about Starmount Forest and Kinloch Golf Club.  As for Whiskey Creek, there are some facts missing from this discussion that I will be happy to discuss offline if anyone cares.  

Again thanks for recognizing our efforts, after 15 years in the business, we have had the opportunity to work on interesting projects with good clients.  We are fortunate, indeed.

[jim_lewis]

Lester:

Thanks for posting.  We at GCA value and appreciate input from architects. I hope you will post often in the future.

Jim Lewis

[Joel_Stewart]

Three from California..

Brad Bell - Did Coyote Moon in Truckee, former tour player.

Kyle Phillips - Starting to be well known because of Kingsbarn.  New course opening this year (Southern Gailes) in Scotland will get a lot of notice.  Will parlay those  courses into many other wonderful courses including a course in Alameda, CA not due to open until 2004 or 2005.

Neal Meager - Played with Neal last year and his knowledge brought me to a new level.  Sometimes contributor to this site.

[Craig Rokke]

Archie Struthers name was mentioned, and I would concur
that TD is a very well done course. Anyone know what if any aspects of Rees Jones efforts were utilized in the final product?

[ed_getka]

Another thread I thought I would pull up for the new folks on the block. I finally played Kingsley this spring and it is better than I had imagined it would be. Mike has a great future based on what I saw there.                                                                                                                                                                   Also had a chance to see Lost Dunes by Tom Doak and it is another outstanding effort. The greens and surrounds never let you put your guard down, the conditions into the greens were firm and fast (although I'm told this is not usually the case) and approach shots required a lot of thought since it wasn't simply a matter of dialing in the distance. I thought some of the forced carries would probably be a bit much for the average golfer and some of the walks from green to tee were a little excessive, but somewhat understandable given the site.

[David Wigler]

In the past three years I have been lucky enough to see work that showed a tremendous amount of promise from Mike Devries, Mike Young, Neil Meager, Todd Eckenrode, David Kidd, Gil Hanse, Keith Foster and Bruce Matthews.  I would suspect that the short list of "Name architects" twenty years from now will include many from that group.  

A guy not mentioned yet is Art Schaupeter.  He was jointly responsible for a lot of the great work Keith Foster has done lately and is now on his own.  I have not seen any of his individual stuff but after spending some time together, I am really impressed with his knowledge and his eye for what a golf course should be.

I hope to see some of Jeff Brauer and Jeff Mingay's work soon.

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