AOTD without a clue

[Craig Disher]

Here's an AOTD problem with a twist - I have no idea what or where this course is. Nor do I know if it still exists. It's on the south coast of Long Island and I believe it's to the west of Maidstone. Judging from the estates surrounding it, there's a bit of wealth associated with it. The aerial is from June, 1938.

Some of the holes are truly bizarre - the doughnut green and it's companion, the block for example.



I have a few more unknowns which I'll post if anyone's interested. All are on LI and I'd like to identify them if possible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

CDisher,

It looks like a pretty neat place to me, and I'll bet those ocean breezes made for some great golf.

[CHrisB]

Do those two holes at bottom center actually cross a road? And that thing at the upper right shaped like a double ~, is that a bunker complex? I hope someone can solve this mystery.

[Joel_Stewart]

Why do you think its in Long Island?  Whats the sourse of the pictures?
It is very interesting.  Thanks.

[TEPaul]

I have no real clue either but could it be the companion course to Westhampton that is definitely gone now? I haven't seen Mike Rewinski on here for a long time but he did once show me drawings or plans of that Westhampton companion course. Mike's family being out there for some generations in the business Mike pretty much knows most of what goes on and went on in that area though!

[Gene Greco]

Could be the Bridgehampton Club which is just west of the Maidstone and exists as a 9 holer today.

[Jim_Kennedy]

It sure looks like a course George Bahto would know.

[Chris_Blakely]

My original guess was going to be Westhampton Country Club's Oneck Course designed by Banks which I believe someone previously refered to.  But, after comparing the aerial that Mr. Wexler has in the book from the same year 1938 (page 15), 5 years after the course closed and his course map (page 12) , it does not look like they are the same course.  If anyone else has the book (and I assume they do because he was featured in one of the monthly interviews here), they can form their own opinions.

[SPDB1]

can't talk now, but I think this is definitely the Quogue Field Club.
I am almost certain of it. The holes on the right of the picture were washed away.
it is now a 9-holer. I have been wanting to write about it for some time, and
hopefully, if time permits, will do so tomorrow.

[Craig Disher]

ChrisB, I believe the two holes do cross a road. Unfortunately, the bottom of the picture is the edge of the roll so there's no more to be seen. The double "s" looks like a bunker to me. I have a picture with much better resolution but it's too large to post. The routing for that hole appears to be from just right of the large square green, across the double s bunkers and ending at the green (if it's a green) on the peninsula formed by the river and the man-made inlet shaped like a hipboot. If that's a green, how was anyone supposed to hit to it? OTOH, maybe it's a teebox for the hole with the large square green. George Bahto may be the only one who knows.

Joel, This is definitely from LI - this aerial is on the same roll of film that contains views of Maidstone, Shinnecock Hills, etc. The source is Dept. of Agriculture aerial photos obtained from the Nat'l Archives.

[Will W]

craig, that's incredibly cool and a great find from the NA!

spdb, great call.  i was just looking at the mapquest aerial of quogue field club and the holes on the left side of craig's aerial are the ones that are still around.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Who designed the golf course and in what year ?

Can we get a current aerial of the golf course ?

[Anthony_Nysse]

This is Quogue Field Club. I played there last year and what a treat. 9 hole course that they make 18 with 2 sets of tees...difficult when the wind id up. One would think that it's a CB Macdonald, but it's not. I can't tell you any more about the architect.

[Craig Disher]

C&W says that it was designed by Rb Wilson and James Hepburn with a couple holes revised by Stephen Kay. The course dates from 1887 which explains the quirky bunkers, especially on the lost 9.

Anthony, any recollection of the circular hole (#2?)? Was the green elevated much above the bunker?

[TEPaul]

The course dates from 1887??

Are you sure about that?? Clubs like Shinnecock are not going to want to hear about this as it will knock out of whack their belief that they are "first this and first that?" Shinnecock is definitely not that old!

Now listen fellows--if someone can establish that this course is that old--all of us must collect out there and do some archaeological golf architectural research!!

If we happen to think that an 1887 green is buried under some attractive Long Island housewive's bed it matters not--we have an inherent right to remove her bed and go down below it to see what we can find!!

[Anthony_Nysse]

The second at QFC is alot like #17 at the Creek. The green is raised about 4 feet above the bunker floors and the green has a slight bowl to it.

[Chris_Hunt]

I had the pleasure to play here last year as well with Mr. Nysse.  Probably the best nine-holer I have played in the States, but I haven't played many that were worth a damn.  I took some terrible pictures while I played, late in the afternoon, but here are some of the best of them to give anyone who hasn't played there a flavor for it.

This is the aforementioned 2nd green, with encircling bunker.  Note the sculpted mounds at the left in front of it that sweep into the sand-- definitely a period piece.



This is the long par-3 4th hole with its Biarritz green.  The tee shot carries over the wetlands.  This is a fabulous hole and green complex, IMO.  If you look closely at the more recent aerial, you can see the swale in the green just barely...



This is the only sand hazard I have seen of this variety.  It does not seem to be an original, unless the mounds have simply lost their grassing over the years...crazy, though.  This is right of the 5th fairway.



The 5th green, where, along with the following tee, you come closest to the water on the present layout.  Nice little hump-ridge running through this green, particularly when you note the troubles of being long.



The approach to the 8th green from the right rough (where I take a lot of my pictures from ), where you can see the staggering of bunkers that make up the necklace so visible 50 yards short of the green on both aerials.

Rudimentary shaping, but nice strategic element.

[Mike_Cirba]

As far as date of origin, Dr. William Quirin's "Golf Clubs of the MGA" book has Quogue's course listed as built in 1900, with the infamous R.B. Wilson (sounds like the name of a soulful Motown singer ) as the architect.  

[Craig Disher]

The 1887 date comes from golfcourse.com, an often incorrect source of information. 1887 could well be the date the club was founded.

Thanks for the great pictures!

The mounded bunker in the photo wasn't there in 1938; a bunker appears on the right of the fairway in the recent photo. The configuration of the 4th also was changed with the addition of the water hazard. The 1938 view shows the green surrounded by bunkers which no longer exist. Maybe the flooding that washed away the other 9 left its mark there.

Obviously this clueless AOTD was too easy. I'll post another one a little later.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Since findng GCA in June of 2001, I've learned about clubs on Long Island that I've never heard of before, like Deepdale and South Fork, but I absolutely have never heard of Quogue, either.  It's kind of amazing that it's never been mentioned on GCA before (that I've seen), considering just about every other club on L.I. has.

Anyone notice the biggest difference between Craig's aerial and the one William posted?  That angled Biarritz green, shown in Chris' pics is not in Craig's old aerial, as it used to be more 'plain', with 3 bunkers around a round green.  The pond to the left of that green is new also.  Irrigation pond, perhaps?

A recent thread (not Shivas' inverse Biarritz thread) asked about the existence of Biarritz greens 90 degrees to the player.  This green is not 90 degrees, but maybe 30 degrees, making it like a combination redan (angle) and Biarritz (green).  The circular bunker green looks very much like a Short.

Perhaps the reasoning behind changing the 4th hole to a Biarritz, is that is looks like there was a Biarritz that was lost from the 9 lost holes.  Immediately to the right of the square bunker complex, with the "parallel S" bunker complex (looks like an "approximately" symbol) halfway down, looks like a Biarritz green, with three "Morse code" bunkers lining each side.

It wouldn't surprise me that the 1887 date is when the Quogue FC first formed (as is the case with many of the old clubs), then the golf course was built later.  There are definitely CB Mac/Raynor-esque looking features here.

EDIT:  Craig and I crossed in Cyberspace and posted the same thoughts.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Just a question for those better informed than me:  The photo of the par-3 4th shows a "Biarritz" green with a swale. No telling how deep this feature is but it doesn't seem to be nearly as deep as Yale's or FI's. When is a swale just a swale and not a "Biarritz"?

[SPDB]

Although I can't really elaborate on this course anymore than Chris and Anthony have done, I can tell you that this course is an absolute pleasure, and really one of those hidden gems that you just sort of stumble upon, and the kind of course that really holds immeasurable allure for fans of classic architecture.

I had played it early, adn was planning on doing a write up, when time permitted, unfortunately it got put on the back burner. I had also wanted to bring it up in the context of Shivas' sideways biarritz thread.

The architects are RB Wilson (the professional at Shinnecock)
and James Hepburn, a former sec'y of the British PGA, and founder of the American version.

A hurricane washed away most of the course, irreversibly damaging the 9 you see to the upper right, and necessitating changes to the other 9 (such as the biarritz). It really is a shame seeing this aerial, since those lost holes really appear the most engaging, that squared bunker complex is really stunning from the air.

The 2nd hole, ringed in sand is actually a punchbowl green, likely making it one of the earliest on American soil.

let the inspection begin, forthwith.

[Joel_Stewart]

Question: How deep is the sand with the mound?  I'm wondering how do they keep the sand on the mound?

[Chris_Hunt]

Jim:

Here is another picture of the Biarritz swale.  I would estimate its depth at around 18 inches, with about a 4 foot width.  I think it is deep enough and located properly enough to be considered an official example of the famous variety.



Joel:

As you can see from the picture, the bunker has been raked by machine, so they probably have to fix it more often than other bunkers.  I would think that firmer soil has shaped these mounds some 4-6 inches beneath the top of the sand, but that is just a guess.  Nobody in my group hit into it, and I did not go in to check it out, unfortunately.

[GeoffreyC]

Dr. Bill Quirin has a bit to say about Quiogue in his book.

"The Westhampton and Quiogue clubs were natural rivals, whether the issue be golf, baseball, or collegiate affialiation.  The summer residents of Westhampton hailed primarily from Brooklyn and many of them had attended Princeton. Quiogue attracted visitors from NY city, most of whom were graduates of Yale. ....

Quiogue had a nine hole course laid out in 1895.  Later extended to 18 holes, the course was reduced to nine holes again by the devastating hurricane of 1938."

The date of the aerial, June 1938 is timely in that the hurricane occurred in that same year. It looks like this aerial has more then 9 holes so the hurricane must have occurred after June.  I think the later aerial shows the 9 holes remaining.