Which architect would you choose

[Patrick_Mucci]

if you were going to develop and build a 36 hole residential golf course complex ?

And, why ?

Would it be one or two architects ?

[Mike Sweeney]

What is the price range of the houses?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

I refuse to sell to you and TEPaul.

Mid to high end

[Mike Sweeney]

Retirement or family place?

Resort or primary housing area?

Ocean or mountains?

Severe or minor environmental restrictions in the area where I might prefer someone who has worked the area before?

Who are the competitive courses and the architects in the area.

Are we using your money?   If so, then Coore and Crenshaw because I like their courses and Doakey and I would battle too much over the hairy bunkers.

[paul cowley]

Obviously I would pick me.....but I would quickly suggest that another GCA was brought on board for the other course.

I have seen very few [actually no] situations where I feel that one architect designing two courses on the same property was better than the variety that two different minds could provide.

I still would want to input the overall master plan....including the 36 hole routing...as that is one of the most important pieces of the puzzle.

[Tim Bert]

I think I'd go with two different architects for variety.  I'd go with one that the general golfing populace would be attracted to for name recognition and "buzz" for the home sales.  I'd bring in someone like Fazio or a former pro like Norman or a combo like Cupp/Kite.  I'd have them design the course that is closer to the neighborhood (houses on the course, but not intruding on the design.)  Then I'd have a second course that was more secluded from the housing and bring in Doak or Hanse or someone that carries equal weight to the above in architectural circles but not necessarily with Joe Public homebuyer.

[Ron Farris]

Someone told me a few days ago that the Nicklaus name puts more than $100,000 extra on a building lot. The design comes free if you have over 35 lots!

[Greg Tallman]

Depends on your overall plan. Are mass pre-sales desired? Required?

Most studies will identify a "small" marketing benefit obtained during presales(homes, memberships) in the 12-18 months leading up to the opening of the course when employing the big name, mass designers. They may understate this a bit and if you need a high sales volume to make it work you would likely choose the usual suspects.
1. Nicklaus
2. Fazio
3. Weiskopf
4. Trent Jones II

If you have staying power and want to differentiate yourself you would go with any number of designers and quite honestly the differences would be totally lost on the vast majority of those purchasing in the development... they might only get an education on the true talents like Tom Doak, C&C et al. People on this site don't seem to grasp how obscure these guys are (Crenshaw excluded). Bandon has gone a long way to changing that for Doak but I would guess he is still unknown to 90+% of the "golfing public"... and certain he is comfortable with that.

I applaud Querencia locally for hiring Gil Hanse to do their second course as I can tell you their membership did not/does not know him from Adam... but they will.  

Pascucci answered this best... if you can afford it take the best of both world's.

To directly answer your question assuming I did not need an impact announcement/marketing campaign based on the name of the designer I would hire Jim Lipe in a New York minute.  




 

[Forrest Richardson]

I agree with Greg, hire Jim Lipe. Then — just maybe — he will be too busy and refer the work to our office.

[A.G._Crockett]

All other things equal, I'd rather have the two relatively different courses done by two different GCA's, but then, I hang out on this website.  

In real life, I would very much want to know if and by how much paying two design fees exceeds paying one guy to do two courses, AND I would want to know the connection between the name or names on the course and the money that flows back to my pocket.  In other words, in the end, it is a business decision more than a golf decision...

[paul cowley]

Good post Greg.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Someone told me a few days ago that the Nicklaus name puts more than $100,000 extra on a building lot. The design comes free if you have over 35 lots!

Does the 35 lot break even point include the additional $15MM spent for course construction?

I'd pick someone creative, unique and 100% committed to the project.

[mark chalfant]

first course

Two Dye proteges for their classical approach

Tim Liddy
Bobby Weed

second   course:  Gene Bates   (with Pate or Fred Couples for marketing)  

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes. I have asked my wife, and she says it should be Paul Cowley.

[JWL]

Mr. Nuzzo

When statements are made here that are totally incorrect, I try to correct them so that the inaccuracy is not perpetuated.
   You must have Nicklaus mixed up with another designer when state that an additional 15million will be required for the construction over that of "other" designers.   That simply is just not factual.   An example of that is that bids have arrived for a Jack Nicklaus Signature project in NC and they are coming in right around 6 million dollars..total.   That is a far cry from an "additional" 15 million dollars for JN's design.

I hope we have heard the last of that sort of misinformation.
cheers

[cary lichtenstein]

The architects of choice would be site and project dependent

[Forrest Richardson]

Mike — I will concur with Jim on the cost of a Nicklaus course. I think many of the rumors about extra cost are just that — rumors. I am working alongside Nicklaus at the moment, on a companion course. From what I can tell, the cost of the Nicklaus course is about what it should be given the complexity of the site and programming established by the owner.

But, the Nicklaus folks are very busy — so again, hypothetically, let's give the work (initially) to Jim so there is a chance Paul or I might wind up with the assignment if time does not permit them to get to it.  

[Dan Joseph]

Hurdzan/Fry, especially if there are environmental issues, I think it's their specialty.  Same GCA can give you two very different courses built very close to each other.  Pulpit and Paintbrush, The Club at Bond Head South and North.  

[Forrest Richardson]

I do not think the Pulpit and Paintbrush are next to each other, nor do those courses have anything to do with residential. But they would be a good choice.

[Greg Tallman]

All other things equal, I'd rather have the two relatively different courses done by two different GCA's, but then, I hang out on this website.  

In real life, I would very much want to know if and by how much paying two design fees exceeds paying one guy to do two courses, AND I would want to know the connection between the name or names on the course and the money that flows back to my pocket.  In other words, in the end, it is a business decision more than a golf decision...

If bottom line is your bottom line then the issue is not one of quality, design style, personalities... little more than name recognition among the masses. Your decision then is rather simple. You would hire Nicklaus or Fazio. They are bankable and there are any number of detailed studies that demonstrate the final numbers.

The two for one fee question is a moving target and, if we are talking a major residential development, inconsequential.

[Dan Joseph]

My point was that the same GCA can give you two very different courses.

Two nice Hurdzan/Fry development courses that come to mind are Little Mountain (5 star by GD) and Stone Water (Nationwide tour stop).  

[Greg Tallman]

I agree with Greg, hire Jim Lipe. Then — just maybe — he will be too busy and refer the work to our office.

I'm sure Seρor Lipe could fit it into his schedule so long as it does not entail working on Saturdays from September through early January when LSU is trying to assert SEC dominance over the rest of the planet!

[Greg Tallman]

Good post Greg.

Gracias, and of course if you are doing this project in the dunes of Baja California you hire Paul Cowley (Love) and some other "renowned" architect for the second course!

Heard you have begun grassing... seems another visit is in order.

[David Stamm]

If we are looking at this from a real world financial investment as a developer, one of the courses has to be a mainstream "name" arch. I would call up RTJ,jr for that task. Overall I like his courses and he has the pedigree to attract the masses. The second course would be my selfish pick, and I would go with either Doak, Hanse or C&C.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

While you don't say it directly, some might think also that JN and company wouldn't be either committed or creative as a smaller company.  That isn't necessarily true, although as a small company too, I like to think you can be right.

For that matter, the $6MIL figure isn't out of line for building a first class golf course. I have trouble getting my golf courses in much under $4.5 MIL, without cutting corners in some ways (like California greens) and I gather that JN probably doesn't do.  He also may sod more, do more extensive irrigation than I might, etc.  (and certainly more than you did on your project!) I am sure most costs come with trying to build the course for the utmost in maintenance levels, which the high end clubs desire.

In any event, those items may even pay for themselves over time.

There are some conflicting articles on just what the value of the name designers are for housing, including a recent one where they hired Doug Carrick in Canada and the Owner says it makes no difference.  NGF has studied name designers and says only 3% of golfers care.  WSJ had an article saying the values go way up with the big names, but I am not sure there is a causal relationship.  It could be that they are hired on projects where land costs, amenities, their fees, etc. are all higher and the developer HAS to charge more per lot.

Paul C,

If you don't think one gca can build two different course styles, go to Giants Ridge and play the Quarry and Legend, and/or trek up to Fortune Bay. If the site is different, most of us can do different designs.

Also, do you think Fazio's two courses at World Woods are different enough for one gca?