[Tony Ristola]

Should have said courses normally off the golfclubatlas radar worth making the trip for...because they have a handful of holes you should see.

The remainder of the course may not be much to write home about, but there are 3 to 6 outstanding holes.

[Jon Wiggett]

Well Tony,

here in Switzerland, Leuk is worth a visit.It is a links style course which plays F&F with a strong breeze on most days but is set in the mountains about 30 minutes away from Crans-Montana. Another in Switzerland is Bürgenstock near to Luzern. A vor alpine 9 hole course that is great for the short game and full of quirk. In England then close to Leeds Selby, Howley Hall and Hogden are all worth a visit.

[Ally Mcintosh]

one i can think of is royal tarlair near inverness in scotland...

the 13th hole is a great 155 yard par-3 drop shot to a tiny rock peninsula jutting out into the ocean 100 ft up... bail out area to left is semi-blind so doesn't take away from the breathtaking wow factor initial view upon walking on to the tee... the rest of the course is quite pleasant as well but you play it for this one hole...

[Matt_Sullivan]

A rather out of the way one -- holes 7,8 and 9 of the Lake Course at Spring City, in Yunnan, China. Yunnan is in the far south west of China -- you could drop in on your way to Tibet!

The Lake Course is a RTJ2 design that makes its way down a Mountain side to a magnificent lake and then climbs back up on the back 9. Its one of the best courses in China (which is not necessarily saying much) and usually cracks the GD list for top 100 courses outside the US. The resort is great and the conditioning is immacuate and holes 7, 8 and 9 are great fun.

The seventh is a shortish par 4 where a brave drive over a gorge (250 yard carry or so) reaches a downslope that will take you within 50 yards of the green (and if you really catch it you can trickle pretty close). The lay up around the gorge is no bargain and leaves a downhill wedge to an exposed green.

The eigth is a dropshot par 3 (8 or 9 iron) to a green set into the lack. Gimmicky perhaps but fun. My wife usually plays a lovely punch and run to beat the wind and the water.

Nine is a great risk and reward par 5 that runs along the lake's edge. One of those holes where you can dread a great drive because it leaves a second shot where the green is eminently reachable but it all looks extremely dangerous.

It's good to see such a great natural setting supported by good (and fun) golf holes

[Chris_Clouser]

Tony,

Indiana is full of them.  Part of the reason I've been doing those threads lately is point this out to those that only think great golf occurs in the Northeast and at some out of the way resorts on the West coast.

Chris

[Ally Mcintosh]

actually, i've just thought of an excellent one.... holes 14,15,16 on the o'meara course at carton house in ireland...

the rest of the course is distinctly average but these 3 river valley holes are pretty stunning...

[Jason Topp]

Waveland in Des Moines Iowa has 5 holes as good as any.  8-10 are adequate and 3-5 stink.  Conditionining is usually terrible, but varies widely.

The great holes:

#4

370 yard par four dogleg left with a racetrack corner (banked with the dogleg) that, in firm conditions, will feed a tee shot near the green if hit perfectly, or in the left woods if hit too agressively.

#7

500 yard par five with the green set against a hillside on the edge of thick woods on the right.  A very wide fairway makes the green easily reachable with 3 conservative shots, but the terrain and the trees force a draw tee shot/fade approach to reach in 2.

#9 - 400 yard par four down and back up steep slopes.  Green is at grade with the surrounds and blind approach must be kept below the hole

#12 - 575 yard par five

Might be my favorite par five anywhere.  It forces decisive and interesting play on every shot.

Despite its length, the hole can be reached in 2 shots (even by me) when the ground is firm due to a prevailing tailwind.  In order to reach the green in 2, you need to hit your tee shot down the right edge of the gentle dogleg right and use natural slopes to propel the ball to a little hill about 250 from the green.  The second then needs to carry a stand of trees, land on the far  right side of the fairway and roll over the top of the hill about 60 yards short of the green, it will then propel foward and left to the edge of the green.

To reach the green in 3 shots, a tee ball to the left side of the wide fairway gives a better angle for the 2nd.  The 2nd needs to end up on a hilltop between 150 and 75 yards short of the green with the 3rd only visible if you get within 100.  The 3rd is a downhill pitch to a green perched between a steep slope and some trees.  

16 - 465 yard par four - angles slopes to the fairway require you to decide the shape of your tee shot and where you will land it for your approach.  If you calculate wrong, you are in trees or near OB.  I've had 2nd shots from in the fairway between 250 and 100 yards.

[David_Tepper]

Ally Mcintosh -

Have you played Duff House Royal? How does it compare to Royal Tarlair? Which is the "better" course?

By the way, have you played the new Spey Valley course or do you know anyone who has? Any feedback?

Thanks.

DT

[Ted Kramer]

Should have said courses normally off the golfclubatlas radar worth making the trip for...because they have a handful of holes you should see.

The remainder of the course may not be much to write home about, but there are 3 to 6 outstanding holes.

Lido on Long Island.
#5 is cool par 3 against the bay.
#13 is a great, tough par 4 along the bay playing to an elevated green
#16 is a really fun par 5, options galore.

I happen to think the whole course is pretty solid, but those holes are worth the trip.

-Ted

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

Here are a few that I've seen since The Confidential Guide.  I'm sure each of them would have some fans who insist the whole course is deserving of attention and not just a few holes ... and I'm sure that's more true of some of these than others ... but here goes:

Portland CC, Maine
Plymouth CC, Mass
Hudson National
Huntington CC, Long Island
Detroit Golf Club (South)
Pilgrim's Run, MI
Staley Farms, Kansas City
Pinon Hills, NM
Panmure, Scotland
Halifax, Headingley and Reddish Vale, all MacKenzie layouts in the north of England
Portsea, Australia
Chisholm Park, Dunedin, New Zealand

None of them would get a 7 on the Doak scale but each of them adds to the discussion of golf architecture and each has at least a couple of world-class holes.

[Gene Greco]

   Timber Point on Long Island if only to play the par three "Gibralter".

Thanks, Jason.

[Sean Walsh]

I would nominate Port Fairy in Victoria, Australia.

A very good course for £10-£15 a round.  £200 a year membership.

The stretch of holes from 13 to 16 is very good.  The 3rd is also a favourite of mine.  

Added to the quality of golf is that some of the vistas on offer are second to none.

[Sean_A]

Around Brum:

I just played Handsworth, that is worth a go for a few holes like the 4th and the whole course is quite a pleasure to play. 

Sandwell, there are 3 or 4 crackers, but there are a few duds as well.

Others such as Worcestershire which has a few great Dr. Mac holes left, but a few duds as well and the front nine of the Highgate course at Enville is terrific. 

Whittington Heath is probably the best sleeper of the lot.

General courses around England:

Stoneham down near Southampton is lovely and uses the hills quite well. 

Hockley near Winchester is another sleeper with 4-6 wonderful holes built on the downs.  I love the relentless march up the valley to start the course with the great 2nd and brutal 3rd.  #s 4 & 5 continue the climb to the top but at much less of a grade.  Coming home is a terrific stretch as well.  #s 15-18 all get the blood going for one reason or another.

West Cornwall has many a good hole and some of the best views in golf. 

Of course, I couldn't leave this topic without mentioning Kington, perhaps the most under-rated course I know of.  I shall be there tomorrow with the full knowledge that despite the torrential rain we have had for getting onto to two months now, Kington will be dry as bone!

Ciao

[mark chalfant]

Shorehaven, Ct.  Wilie Park / Robert White.

Great set of  par threes. lovely rolling terrain throughout. stirring finishing strech of  15-18 that borders a serene marsh.
Very nice mix of short and long par fours, and set of nice classic greens.

[Andy Troeger]

Tony,

Indiana is full of them.  Part of the reason I've been doing those threads lately is point this out to those that only think great golf occurs in the Northeast and at some out of the way resorts on the West coast.

Chris

Three of the best in Indiana being Sultan's Run, The Fort, and Rock Hollow.

In New Mexico, Tom's mention of Pinon Hills is notable, as is Pueblo de Cochiti and the UNM Championship Course.

Other somewhat random courses of note: Grandote Peaks in La Veta, CO and The Bear Trace at Cumberland Mountain and Stonehenge GC at Fairfield Glade, TN.

[Phil McDade]

Ally Mcintosh -

Have you played Duff House Royal? How does it compare to Royal Tarlair? Which is the "better" course?

By the way, have you played the new Spey Valley course or do you know anyone who has? Any feedback?

Thanks.

DT

David:

Royal Tarlair is a one-note course (well, one great note, and a few others worth playing) -- Clivet, the par 3 described by Ally, is a terrific hole, but that's about it there. A great location, but much of the golf is played in a meadow-like setting with little to speak of to hold your interest, save for a hole or two leading in and out of the spectacular 13th. Duff House Royal is nearby, in Banff, with greens said to be in their orginical Mackenzie-designed state. More of a parkland course that winds near a river.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Now that I have driven I-5 a few times. Chambers Bay qualities as out of the way and is more than worth the trip to the Pacific Northwest. I played it for the first time today and will again on Saturday. It is special course in a most special place.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally Mcintosh -

Have you played Duff House Royal? How does it compare to Royal Tarlair? Which is the "better" course?

By the way, have you played the new Spey Valley course or do you know anyone who has? Any feedback?

Thanks.

DT

David:

Royal Tarlair is a one-note course (well, one great note, and a few others worth playing) -- Clivet, the par 3 described by Ally, is a terrific hole, but that's about it there. A great location, but much of the golf is played in a meadow-like setting with little to speak of to hold your interest, save for a hole or two leading in and out of the spectacular 13th. Duff House Royal is nearby, in Banff, with greens said to be in their orginical Mackenzie-designed state. More of a parkland course that winds near a river.

hi david, phil,

it has been a full 20 years since i played either of these courses... i was young at the time... however, phil seems to have described tarlair aptly... i remember duff house royal being a beautiful wide-open fairway course with lovely greens... i wouldn't have been aware of the intricacies of architecture at the time but thinking back, i reckon it must still hold a lot (if not almost all) of the original mackenzie vision... it's a short course but it has an air of excellence... i would play duff house ahead of tarlair...

...i haven't played spey valley... i saw the thread and would be interested to hear any feedback...

...back on topic, people here seem to be listing a whole load of underrated courses or hidden gems... i thought the point was average courses with a few stunning holes that need checking out... hence tarlair and carton o'meara that i mentioned...

[David_Elvins]

In Melbourne, Yarra Yarra fits the bill.  Probably a step below the the top 6-7 courses on the sandbelt but with a top 3 holes better than the top 3 at any sandbelt course other than Royal Melbourne.

[Glenn Spencer]

Tony:

Here are a few that I've seen since The Confidential Guide.  I'm sure each of them would have some fans who insist the whole course is deserving of attention and not just a few holes ... and I'm sure that's more true of some of these than others ... but here goes:

Portland CC, Maine
Plymouth CC, Mass
Hudson National
Huntington CC, Long Island
Detroit Golf Club (South)
Pilgrim's Run, MI
Staley Farms, Kansas City
Pinon Hills, NM
Panmure, Scotland
Halifax, Headingley and Reddish Vale, all MacKenzie layouts in the north of England
Portsea, Australia
Chisholm Park, Dunedin, New Zealand

None of them would get a 7 on the Doak scale but each of them adds to the discussion of golf architecture and each has at least a couple of world-class holes.

Tom,

Could you go into further detail about Huntington? I am really interested to hear you likes and dislikes about the place. Thanks.

[Sean_A]

I have one more to add - Strandhill.  There are a handful of stunning holes on this course that are a bargain to see.  Its a good fall back on course for the area. 

While not quite off the radar, I would also throw in Huntercombe because I am not sure many people even in England make the effort to see this course.  It has a few holes which really wake one up as to how good grade level architecture can be, but the kicker is the entire course is loaded with interest.  Huntercombe, imo, is one of those courses that is worth a day's detour to see.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Tony,

Slightly odd criteria.  I think Silloth on Solway is off the beaten track and even the GCA radar because of its location but it's well worth the trip.  It's not a question of a few good holes there, however, the whole course is excellent.

I'd agree with Sean'smention of Huntercombe, would add Elie and for architectural interest as well as just sheer fun would also throw in the name of Kington.

[Dan Herrmann]

Niagara Falls Country Club, Lewiston NY.  Holds the annual Porter Cup.  First really good golf course I ever set foot on, even though I've still not played it.

[David Stewart]

Three of the best in Indiana being Sultan's Run, The Fort, and Rock Hollow.

I would add the Trophy Club and Harrison Hills in Indiana.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I don't think Southerness gets many mentions on GCA, but there are several excellent holes, especially the 3rd, 5th and 12th, though there are no weak holes.

Nairn is rarely mentioned but I think the 3rd and 4th, 8th, 13th, 14th and 15th are particularly fine.

Seacroft is generally off the GCA radar but there are some corkers such as the 4th, 5th, 7th, and the outstanding 13th.

Hunstanton is infrequently cited and the 6th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 14th (yes, despite its being a totally blind par 3!), 16th, 17th and 18th are very fine holes.

Aldeburgh is a personal favourite with the 4th-7th a great sequence of holes, the 10th, 11th and 15th also outstanding.

Crowborough Beacon has a number of terrific holes, most notably the 2nd and 6th and the diminutive 13th.

I should bringing up the subject of bunkerless Berkhamstead, but I can't really say that there are any truly outstanding holes, more that the overall challenge is considerable.

I certainly agree with Tom Doak about the merits of Halifax which has exceptional par 4s at the 3rd, 4th and 5th, a mad 258-yard blind par 4 at the 12th and a stunning drop shot down a mountainside at the 17th.

Brancepeth Castle has many exciting holes played across ravines, with the short, par-4 8th followed by terrific back-to-back par 3s and many another fine hole.

Sandiway (Ray/Colt) is not a total architecural gem, but there are some very fine holes, particularly the immensely strong par 4s at the 10th, 12th and 14th. I like its opening hole, too, and the 17th is a good short par 4.

Seascale raises the spirits, with the 3rd, 9th, 13th, 14th, 15th and 17th worth the visit, and poweful players might also like the 16th, but it is too hard for me!

In Wales most players try to make it to nefyn, for the fabulous views and the eccentricity of the back nine, but I should love to alert the curious to Porthmadog. It is not a great course, and it is not entirely links, but the back nine most certainly is links golf of the best kind, and the sequence from the 11th to the 15th is marvellous.

Another Welsh minor masterpiece is Holywell, wild and woolly, like the sheep which roam the course freely. True, there are a few weak holes early in the round, but the course steps up several gears when you cross the road on the 11th. From here to the 17th there are some cracking holes with the short 12th, par-5 14th, short 15th and the 333-yard 17th marvellous fun - the green on the 17th being particularly wickedly attended by grassy hollows and devious contours.

Tom Williamsen did a lovely write up of Cavendish on this site and it certainly has a number of outstanding holes, the 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 18th being the most distinguished.

Don't forget Prestbury, either, with an excellent opening hole, the short 7th, monstrous 9th, demanding 13th, and superb 16th perhaps the finest holes on a course with few weaknesses.

I'll also put in a word for Hamburger-Falkenstein, with my favourite holes being the 5th, 6th, 7th, 13th, 14th and 17th. 

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