[TEPaul]

"Tom
Im glad that you got my buddy Ron to open up,"

Mark:

Get him to open up??

That's never been a problem, believe me. The real problem is trying to shut him down.

Ron may be 4-5 people. Sometimes he's Franky Valano, apparently a mafiosi type, sometimes he's Wayne McCutcheon (I don't know what he's about). Other times he's some tractor salesman from New Holland with an Amish accent and the last time he was a guy with the name of something like Dominic Delsoto. I asked him why he was Dominic Delsoto and he just said he thought the name sounded cool.

The guy's a character, that's for sure. But if you really want to see something funny you should see Ron Forse and Jim Wagner together. It's like a comedy team---eg Frick and Frack----the "crack-up" guy and the straight man or gyro gearloose and the organization man.

They got out of the car at Merion a few months ago and Ron screamed:

"Where's my jacket??"

Jim Wagner said:

"You must have left it at Lancaster CC".

Ron:

"Oh NO, this is a complete catastrophe, what am I going to do now?"

....as Jim Wagner hands him his jacket which Jim had under his arm..

Then we were walking around Bedford Springs one time. We're on about the 11th hole and Ron gets so animated about these cool mounds they did. He says:

"Wait 'til you see these mounds on the 12th hole."

Very calmly Jim says:

"There on the 13th hole Ron".

Ron:

"Oh yeah, whatever, they're somewhere around here."

[Dan Moore]

Tom,  

Days like today (95 in the shade) help me, even if I don't agree with the amount of overplanting, understand why so many trees have been planted over the years in the MW.  Come check out Lawsonia for yourself on September 8th as part of our Langford Moreau in Wisconsin tour.  You'd have to skip the Packers Eagles at Lambeau field on Sunday though so you could take in all the trees at Ozaukee CC which Iunderstand was originally a treeless prairie.  You could even get a first hand look at Erin Hills on Monday.  

[JNC Lyon]

CC of Buffalo has two volcano holes from Ross as mentioned a million times before.  Both are fantastic; #6 is my favorite Ross par three.

Another favorite Ross volcano par three of mine is the 15th at Teugega.  Many know the seventh at Teugega, where Ross got his first ace.  But the fifteenth is far more unique.  The green is situated atop a hill, with shots being shrugged off on all sides, but the green itself is a halfpipe sunk into the knoll, making it a true volcano.



BTW the hole above where the Prince of Wales made his seventeen is the 12th at Durban CC for anyone who was wondering.

[Phil McDade]

Re. Lawsonia's 14th -- a few trees could stand to go, particularly in back. The ones on the side bother me less than the ones in back, because the side ones rarely come into play in any significant way, but cutting the ones in back would give the golfer a sense on the tee of "better not ever, in my life, go long here" (the drop-off in back is quite severe), which of course leads to all kinds of swing thoughts on the tee. A neat little hole, perhaps the easiest of Laswsonia's fine set of par 3s.

The 14th is not nearly as pronounced a volcano hole as the more acclaimed 7th at Lawsonia, home of the much-rumored boxcar. Interestingly, perhaps the most famous volcano hole in Wisconsin is at the little nine-hole Eagle Springs course between Milwaukee and Lake Geneva, a 134-yard par 3 supposedly designed by one A.G. Spaulding of baseball fame. It's a natural design utilizing a glacial deposit, or drumlin, for the volcano effect.

[JNC Lyon]

The Golden Age of Golf Course Design has an old photo of that hole showing almost no pines around the 14th at Lawsonia.  All of those pines could go, it would create more room for the wind to swirl around the green.

[Doug Siebert]

DanM:

I don't care what the consequences will be---I will cover you no matter what but would you please assure me that every single tree in that photo of the cool hole at Lawsonia will be removed and rather quickly, thank you very much?

TEPaul,

It is actually even worse than that photo makes it out to be!  There's a tree branch overhanging the left side of the teebox that gets in the way of short iron shots.  When I played there last month in my first round the tee was on the left side of the teebox both rounds.  On the first round I tried to knock the ball down a bit bit caught some pine needles (but no branch) and ended up OK on the green.  In my second round I decided to just hit it over the damn thing but ended up a few feet short of the green.

With all the trees that were removed at Lawsonia a few years ago I don't really understand how they missed that one, unless it is some sick individual's idea of strategy.  I can forgive a lot of sins where trees are concerned, but my biggest pet peeve are tree branches that get in your way trajectory wise from the tee, whether on par 3s or on driving holes!

[Doug Siebert]

Re. Lawsonia's 14th -- a few trees could stand to go, particularly in back. The ones on the side bother me less than the ones in back, because the side ones rarely come into play in any significant way, but cutting the ones in back would give the golfer a sense on the tee of "better not ever, in my life, go long here" (the drop-off in back is quite severe), which of course leads to all kinds of swing thoughts on the tee. A neat little hole, perhaps the easiest of Laswsonia's fine set of par 3s.

The 14th is not nearly as pronounced a volcano hole as the more acclaimed 7th at Lawsonia, home of the much-rumored boxcar. Interestingly, perhaps the most famous volcano hole in Wisconsin is at the little nine-hole Eagle Springs course between Milwaukee and Lake Geneva, a 134-yard par 3 supposedly designed by one A.G. Spaulding of baseball fame. It's a natural design utilizing a glacial deposit, or drumlin, for the volcano effect.

I'm not really sure why people are defining Lawsonia's 14th as a volcano hole.  There's no dropoff on the left or front left at all, and given that there is a FAR better example of a volcano in the 7th someone just needs to dig up a picture of that.

I don't really have a problem with the trees in back of the 14th (or the 7th)  The green isn't skyline, the trees don't help the golfer or hurt the hole.  If the golfer thinks they are safe in going long then they'll just learn differently the first and last time they make that mistake, won't they?

[Eric Morrison]

The 4th at Shennecossett is an uphill 207 yard par 3, bunker on the left, grass mound at the base on the right. Short is the only bailout option. Here are some pics.

[JNagle]

TEPaul -

What is even funnier than seeing Ron and Jim Wagner together is when Gil walks upon a newly constructed green and comments to Jim Nagle about how well-built it is then says, "hey your not Jim Wagner"  

I have to meet this Jim Wagner some day.  I wonder if he'll take my spot for the 3 a.m. feedings.  

[wsmorrison]

Here is what appears to be an early colorized photograph of the Volcano Hole at Bedford Springs, courtesy of Jim Nagle:

[Phil McDade]

Re. Lawsonia's 14th -- a few trees could stand to go, particularly in back. The ones on the side bother me less than the ones in back, because the side ones rarely come into play in any significant way, but cutting the ones in back would give the golfer a sense on the tee of "better not ever, in my life, go long here" (the drop-off in back is quite severe), which of course leads to all kinds of swing thoughts on the tee. A neat little hole, perhaps the easiest of Laswsonia's fine set of par 3s.

The 14th is not nearly as pronounced a volcano hole as the more acclaimed 7th at Lawsonia, home of the much-rumored boxcar. Interestingly, perhaps the most famous volcano hole in Wisconsin is at the little nine-hole Eagle Springs course between Milwaukee and Lake Geneva, a 134-yard par 3 supposedly designed by one A.G. Spaulding of baseball fame. It's a natural design utilizing a glacial deposit, or drumlin, for the volcano effect.

I'm not really sure why people are defining Lawsonia's 14th as a volcano hole.  There's no dropoff on the left or front left at all, and given that there is a FAR better example of a volcano in the 7th someone just needs to dig up a picture of that.

I don't really have a problem with the trees in back of the 14th (or the 7th)  The green isn't skyline, the trees don't help the golfer or hurt the hole.  If the golfer thinks they are safe in going long then they'll just learn differently the first and last time they make that mistake, won't they?

Doug:

Now that I think about it, you're right -- I have played Lawsonia when the tees are set far left, and those branches can get in the way. I've usually played it with the tees set right, which really brings the bunker into play.

For me, the difference between the trees on 7 and those on 14 is sort of a "comfort" factor -- 14 at Lawsonia is what I'd call a "cozy" hole, in that it always feels to me like a safe shot, because you're in that little cocoon, and it's slightly downhill and not a long carry whatsoever. The 7th is always slightly to fairly terrifying, because the penalty is so severe, outside of back left, where there is a little bit of bail-out room. And the trees on 7 are set pretty far back from the hole -- probably affects the wind, but that hole to me doesn't necessarily need wind to make it a great strategic hole, essentially L/M's version of a Raynor-esque Short (the green on 7 is actually quite large; it just looks smaller on the tee because of the nature of the setting and the steep drop-offs.)
I think cutting those trees in back of 14 would add a dimension of strategy and thought on the tee; for me, the 14th has always been something of a respite after the roller-coaster ride of the previous 13th hole and the two challenging par 4s at 15 and 16.

I'm looking for a picture of the volcano hole at Eagle Springs -- it is truly a volcano-like setting.

[Phil McDade]

Here it is; click on the picture to get a full-screen shot of the 2nd at Eagle Springs. The shadows on the left obscure somewhat the steep falloff on that side.

http://www.eaglespringsgolfresort.com/

[Dan Moore]

I have never had a problem with trees blocking the shot on 14 although I agree all the pines should go.  Seems to me the volcano aspect of the hole has been diminished by the lowering of the green 3-5 feet and the encroachment of trees on the left side of the green.  Other than the ramp which leads to the green on the front left there are pretty big drop offs all around.

From Geoff Shackelford's "Golden Age of Golf Design."
The original length was 130 yds.  

[JNagle]

RON FORSE HERE:
ACTUALLY, THE ABOVE PHOTO IS WHAT THE CURRENT VOLCANO LOOKS LIKE TO JIM NAGLE AFTER HE'S GONE THROUGH ONE OF HIS 3 AM FEEDINGS

[Jim Nugent]

St. Louis CC #7 is a bit like this.  From Ran's profile...

[michael j fay]

The "Battleship" hole at Bald Peak Colony Club is not uphill.

Wilmington Muni has one as do a half a dozen other Ross courses. Most are not as dramatic as the one at Bedford.

Ross used holes of this nature to ease the transition to a higher point on the golf course. Number 6 and number 8 at Worcester Country Club would be a couple of cases on point. Both play from raised tees uphill to their respective greens. They are part of a five hole effort to go from the low point (fairway on #5) to the highest point (green on #9). In using these two par threes, the end of #5 (a par 5) and two par four holes Ross moves the player up the hill some 300+  feet.
Number 7 is a relatively short four (380 max.) with an elevated tee. The very formidable par four 9th is the longest 410 yard hole in the game.

Another transition hole that repeats is the short, straight uphill par four usually no more than 350 yards. Examples # 14 at Oak Hill, #17 at Bellevue in Syracuse, #17 at Essex County Club in Massachusetts, # 16 at Holston Hills. These holes are what I call the "end of the earth" holes in that there is no sight of the green surface and little or no target visible from behind the green. In each case the green size is small and the contours devilish.

It is interesting that Mr. Ross often built these holes near the end of the course making one speculate that he was trying to find elevation for the eighteenth tee.

[JNagle]

The 8th hole at the Misquamicut club.  Clearly one of the more beautiful "volcano" holes.  This one plays at about 165 yards with a ten foot drop in elevation.  The elevation change to the left is about 18 feet at the most.  A great hole with good internal slopes.  I played the hole once so some of the subtle breaks escape me at the moment.


CC of Buffalo's 6th hole.  Plays about 170 yards with a slight drop.  The green has a great deal of slope from back to front with some great internal swells and dips.  Of the three; Bedford, Misqumaicut and CC of B, this is probably the most heavily contoured green.





The 4th at Bedford has great combination of length, elevation change, swirling winds (can't wait to see how the winds impact the hole now that many trees have been removed) and a diagonal tier within the green.  


Here is a photo of the 14th - Tillie's Tiny Tim.  Wayne posted a photo from the 30's above.

[Ian Andrew]

Jim N,

or when Wayne Morrison and Tom MacWood were walking the Cascades discussing their book on Flynn, when Tom MacWood was asked when he was going to finish his first chapter......

[David Stamm]

This is all great stuff guys. Thanks for the thoughts and photos.

A question: Do any think an architect could get away with doing a hole like this today? I'm thinking of more of the extreme examples shown on this thread.  

[JNagle]

14th at Bandon Trails comes to mind.  Although the hole is a short 4, the fall-off to the right is similar to the par 3's being shown.  Recovery from the right is  very difficult considering the angle and width of the green.  Chipping from the left is no picnic either.

[Doug Wright]

This is a great thread.  Does anybody have a decent pic of Swinley's 17th?

Ciao

Sean,

From the Courses by Country writeup of Swinley Forest. Not a volcano but certainly pushed up...

[TEPaul]

Jim:

It was just inevitable that I was going to call you Jim Wagner on here one of these days just as I probably call Jim Wagner Jim Nagle sometimes.

It's hardening of the arteries and age, you know?

But with both of you I've had some really great conversations on so many interesting things to do with golf architecture. You two "Jims" are the best.

With Ron, on the other hand, a conversation could turn into anything, particularly when one never knows if he's feeling like a Wayne MacCutchen or a Franky Valano or some Menonnite tractor salesman from New Holland.

[David Stamm]

This is a great thread.  Does anybody have a decent pic of Swinley's 17th?

Ciao

This one is pretty good. Not one of my own I'm afraid.

[Jeffrey Prest]

Don't you think Hawaii has moved the volcano hole concept on a tad...?

[JNagle]

The Course and Resort had its Grand Re-opening yesterday.  The Resort is a must see.  Architecturally it is amazing to see what they did with the old building.  Nothing short of amazing.  The gentleman in the photo is Mr. Keith Evans.  Although there were many involved Keith handled every discipline, contractor, gov't agency, hiring ........... associated with the project.  

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