Greatest par-4's under 400 yards...

[JESII]

John Kirk,


I would ask you just how poor were those tee shots that "led directly to bogey and double bogey"? Was one in the water? Or perhaps dead against a tree? My point is that there is a big wide area to lay up just in front of the green which leaves a very manageable up and down opportunity...

Any chance you were coaxed into the 5 and 6 as opposed to one poorly played shot creating an automatic 5 or 6?

[Ted Kramer]

I love #4 at Spyglass.
*Shot-testing on both the drive and approach.
*Angles play a large role on both shots.
*Distance control is of paramount importance.
*Fun green to putt on.
*Scenery isn't too bad either, and I don't have any problem including scenery as a positive . . .

-Ted

[Dan Boerger]

One of the key strategic decisions I have to make when I play the 12th hole at Merion just how much I want to challenge the right side on my tee shot. (For those who haven't played there, it's tree lined on the right for the first 150 yards or so and then it opens up as it doglegs right, but still with some pretty penal rough). I much prefer the right side of the fairway, hopefully around 150 yards in. Sure, I need to play over the large bunker (depending upon the pin position), but it's still my best bet to hold the green and the lie is generally much flatter than the left side of the fairway.

The green is much discussed given its severe slope, but there's plenty going on with that hole before you even get there.

For the record, I bogeyed the hole the last I played there. Drove left, my approach went into the left rough, played a very good chip (for me) to a back center pin position and two putted from about 20 feet.

[Jim Franklin]

I'll second Ted's #4 at Spyglass. I will also go with #7 at Sand Hills, and #12 at Ballyneal. Oakmont #17 may be the choice for #17 as well although I do love #17 at NGLA. My #5 would be Long Cove.

[John Kirk]

John Kirk,


I would ask you just how poor were those tee shots that "led directly to bogey and double bogey"? Was one in the water? Or perhaps dead against a tree? My point is that there is a big wide area to lay up just in front of the green which leaves a very manageable up and down opportunity...

Any chance you were coaxed into the 5 and 6 as opposed to one poorly played shot creating an automatic 5 or 6?

JES/Wayne,

I'll have to search the database carefully for that info.  Wait, here it is!  Amazing we can remember such things.

The first time I hit driver, and hit a long pull a foot from one of the fairway bunkers.  The second time I tried either a 5 wood or a 3 iron, and mishit it short and right.  I played the course right after the Hidden Creek GCA outing in late May, and the rough was really nasty, lush and 6-10 inches deep.  The second time we played the course, we were playing through a group standing around the 12th green, and I believe I went hack, chunk, pitch, thanks a lot, and went on to the next hole.

I was coaxed once, then hit a poor shot the second time.

I don't even remember water coming into play.

The first time I thought I had hit a good drive, and was disappointed.  The second time I chopped it around, partly in response to the first experience.  Some aspects of greatness are being displayed here.  I generally remember what happened.  I reacted poorly to the disappointment of the first attempt, and now I have a healthy resentment against the little bastard.  If I ever play the course again, parring #12 will be on the top of the wish list.

JK

[Jeff Goldman]

Homer choice is 6 on the South Course at Olympia Fields, 350 yards, and anyone can make a 3 or 13.  

Work on the course starts monday, and I'm wearing a wet suit in case anyone tries to drown me in the irrigation pond.  

[JESII]

If I ever play the course again, parring #12 will be on the top of the wish list.

JK

Good...and good luck!


My first time there was in the first round of the Hugh Wilson (no practice round for me, I received a last minute invitation after another player withdrew with a bad back) and I hit a nice drive to the corner. With the pin back in the right corner I flushed a 7 iron dead at the stick (mistake #1) and watched it fly right over the green onto the road...made 16 pars a bogey (by hitting it over the 4th green with a wedge) and this double. It went downhill from there that week...

I think this is a great hole, but I do realize that's just opinion so I wasn't trying to get you to think it is great, just to explain its lack of greatness...which didn't seem to easy.

For what it's worth (and don't shoot me Wayne) I don't necessarily think #11 is great...

[Steve Lapper]

Few American shrt holes can compete with this pair...

#'s 7 & 8 at Sand Hills are just as good if not better*. 2 & 17 at Oakmont, 8 & 9 at Cypress Point, 8 & 17 at Pine Valley, 11 & 15 at Merion,  2. 6 ,or 16 at Pacific Dunes and the list can go on. Your hyperbole is just that. Sure, Ballyneal is neat and fun, but its not close to the league of those others I just mentioned.


* and they call for opposing wind directions and different shot values (something that doesn't happen on 7 & 12 at BN)

[Adam Clayman]

What's that sucking sound?

[Steve Lapper]

Must be that sound of a homer inhaling his own methane!

[Adam_Messix]

Ok guys...off to the neutral corners.....

As much as I love 7 and 8 at Sand Hills given they are consecutive and in opposite directions, I feel like I have to give the nod to 7 and 12 at Ballyneal.  There are too many ways to play (and incidentally to mess up) the approach to #7 at Ballyneal and 12 is such a strategic gem off the tee because the proper tee shot location is based totally on hole location.  

As far as the holes at Sand Hills go, I love 8, particularly the green.  I saw quite a shot played from the left bunker last year that curled into the hole.  I like 7 at Sand Hills but seem to remember my second round tee shot ending up in the divot from my first round chip in the hollow to the right of the green.  

Other great short par fours that have not been mentioned would have to include #9 at Morfontaine with it's cute green, #12 at Wade Hampton, and 11 at Highlands CC.  

[Joe Bentham]

My favorite short par 4 at Pacific Dunes is #2.

Intresting.  Although its only 368 from the back tee, I wouldn't call it a 'short' par 4.  Into the wind, its driver/hybrid for alot of players.  Its straight foward when compared to 6 and 16.  Both of which, regardless of wind direction play short.  Most days #13 is played from inside 400 yards but I wouldn't call it a 'short' par 4.

[Steve Lapper]

Ok guys...off to the neutral corners.....

As much as I love 7 and 8 at Sand Hills given they are consecutive and in opposite directions, I feel like I have to give the nod to 7 and 12 at Ballyneal.  There are too many ways to play (and incidentally to mess up) the approach to #7 at Ballyneal and 12 is such a strategic gem off the tee because the proper tee shot location is based totally on hole location.  

As far as the holes at Sand Hills go, I love 8, particularly the green.  I saw quite a shot played from the left bunker last year that curled into the hole.  I like 7 at Sand Hills but seem to remember my second round tee shot ending up in the divot from my first round chip in the hollow to the right of the green.  

Other great short par fours that have not been mentioned would have to include #9 at Morfontaine with it's cute green, #12 at Wade Hampton, and 11 at Highlands CC.  

Adam:

   As you know, we discussed exactly this thing through PM's a while back. Funny thing was that your recollection wasn't quite the same then. You agreed that the BN short fours were not as good as the short fours at Sand Hills and that your 2nd attempt at #7 was not in your previous divot, but instead close by. Rather than beat on a dead sematic horse, look again at the risk/reward of SH #7. If you are downwind, the green is eminently drivable (especially with a draw) and if not, then a safe layup of variable yardage is the alternative. The reverse is precisely true at #8. In effect, they play like doppelgangers of each other. BN doesn't have that type of strategic mating and given its mandatory slower green speeds (due to the almost excessive rumpled nature of their greens), putting strategy (leaving above or below the hole) will never equal the strategic importance accorded to ball placement on 7 & 8 greens at SH. If you want to make par or better on #8 with a front-to-middle flag, you must leave your apporach beneath the hole.
Thus, I would argue that if the measurement is strategy and shot values, SH wins out. If it is raw beauty, I might give the nod to BN.

[archie_struthers]

 

Two jump right off the easel,  with beauty and srategy

#2  Pine Valley

#5   Royal Portrush

both super super shorties

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I can see why you say that about #11.  The tee shot is not an interesting one for someone with your skill level.  But the second shot is an interesting one, especially with firm conditions.  As you know, it is imperative to be in the fairway (not so difficult) in order to spin the ball to stop it on the green.  A front pin position tucked behind the water, that is a butt puckerer for sure!

BillV,

Yes, conceptually linked to Merion's 12th.  Though I still maintain Huntingdon Valley's hole is much more closely linked to the earlier Lehigh CC than Lehigh's being linked to the earlier Merion.

[RJ_Daley]

As a white tee or member tee player, the world is full of great par 4s under 400 yards.  How about narrow this to under 340 or even 320 yards, so even us shorter old guys can ponder the question with relative same playing conditions.  

I like to think of these kind of holes where we can get within 100 yards, but can't quite get home on tee ball.  Then off the tee, with many optional avenues and distances, with a driver, FW metal, flat iron, and presenting plenty of diversity in multi dimensional LZ we can plan that ~100yard pitch to the green and it becomes full of excitement due to a unique green.  For me, #7 Bally and 8 SH are great.  But, don't forget that little beauty in Gothenburg at 15!  To me, the equation has to have quirk in the green, with widely varied LZs to make it great.

 

[Scott Szabo]

But, don't forget that little beauty in Gothenburg at 15!  
 

I'd have to agree with you there, RJ.  #15 at Wild Horse is a great design.  The front right bunker almost forces a player to challenge the left side of the fairway from the tee if the pin is on the right side if you want to hit and hold the green.

I've driven the green downwind and hit as much as a 4-iron second shot into the wind.  I'm sure you'd agree it is a very small target with that much club in hand.  

What a great hole!

Another hole that I enjoy very much is #7 at Bayside in Ogallala.  It plays under 300 yards from the tips and presents alot of options for play as the wind does tend to blow a bit there.

[John Kirk]

My favorite short par 4 at Pacific Dunes is #2.

Intresting.  Although its only 368 from the back tee, I wouldn't call it a 'short' par 4.  Into the wind, its driver/hybrid for alot of players.  Its straight foward when compared to 6 and 16.  Both of which, regardless of wind direction play short.  Most days #13 is played from inside 400 yards but I wouldn't call it a 'short' par 4.

Joe,

I love the challenge of trying to drive over the shoe bunker into the wind, which leaves a short iron, usually gap or pitching wedge, into that green.  Even in a 15 mph breeze it's worth the risk.  Tee it low and try to drill a low one.

Long putts on that big green are a gas.  Great green.  Great hole.

[John Kirk]

Jim,

I can see why you say that about #11.  The tee shot is not an interesting one for someone with your skill level.  But the second shot is an interesting one, especially with firm conditions.  As you know, it is imperative to be in the fairway (not so difficult) in order to spin the ball to stop it on the green.  A front pin position tucked behind the water, that is a butt puckerer for sure!

I agree that #11 isn't as compelling as the rest of the short 4s at Merion.  Nevertheless, I had trouble hitting the fairway at least once, and even from the fairway, that green is very hard to hold with a pitching wedge in your hand.  #11 has history, of course, where Bobby Jones completed his Grand Slam in 1930.

I liked #1, #8, and #15 best, but would sure like to see #10 play with the left rough cut short.  Made a great par on #10 from the back bunker during one round.

FYI, my favorite hole on the course might be #3, but with a course like Merion, it's not really about the individual pieces.

[Ari Techner]

A few of my favorites:

5 Franklin Hills
13 Franklin Hills
6 Royal Cinque Ports
6 Olympia Fields South
2 Erin Hills
6 Pacific Dunes
7 University of Michigan
4 Spyglass Hill

[Joe Bentham]

John
I understand why 2 is a good hole, I just wouldn't call it a short 4par.  On a typical summer day 368 is alot of golf hole.  If your playing 2 as driver, gap wedge then your a BIG hitter most days.  The second shot plays in the 145-160 range for well struck drives.  And that is from the green tees.

[Phil_the_Author]

This thread is pretty convincing that holes properly designed do not need an indornate length to be great or even very good...

To me that says that golf courses where 5/8 or more of the course are made up of par-4's need not be 7,000+ yards to be wonderful tests and great places to play for those that do.

At what point then should the architectural industry consider great holes over distance asked for?

[Wayne_Kozun]

#7 at Scarboro.  It is 275 yards with a very small green - You can dry to drive it but if you are short there are bunkers both left and right about 30 yds short of the green.  If the pin is on the front tier then you will find it very hard to hold anything less than a full wedge on the lower tier.  Putting from the upper tier to lower tier is very tricky and could end up with a putt off the green.   The samrt shot is to lay up to your full wedge distance and try to putt the wedge on the green, below the hole.

Sorry but this is not a very good picture.

[John Kirk]

John
I understand why 2 is a good hole, I just wouldn't call it a short 4par.  On a typical summer day 368 is alot of golf hole.  If your playing 2 as driver, gap wedge then your a BIG hitter most days.  The second shot plays in the 145-160 range for well struck drives.  And that is from the green tees.

Joe,

If you can carry the little bunker, the ball will roll a long way to the bottom of that hill.  I'm guessing a 220 yard carry results in a 265 yard drive, leaving 110 or so.  Of course, any sort of mishit and you've got 140-160 yards from the right side.  Or a poor hooking shot into the big left bunker makes bogey a good score.

[Tim Bert]

John
I understand why 2 is a good hole, I just wouldn't call it a short 4par.  On a typical summer day 368 is alot of golf hole.  If your playing 2 as driver, gap wedge then your a BIG hitter most days.  The second shot plays in the 145-160 range for well struck drives.  And that is from the green tees.

Joe,

If you can carry the little bunker, the ball will roll a long way to the bottom of that hill.  I'm guessing a 220 yard carry results in a 265 yard drive, leaving 110 or so.  Of course, any sort of mishit and you've got 140-160 yards from the right side.  Or a poor hooking shot into the big left bunker makes bogey a good score.

Played the hole 4 times last week.  Bailed out right off the tee twice, got a little bolder and went after the bunker and stuck it right in there once.  For the final round, we had the least wind I've seen at Pacific Dunes in my three trips.  I hit it just right and barely carried the bunker from the green tees.  I think it left me with about 125 to the green.  I doubt I carry it if the wind is blowing 10mph.

I agree that it doesn't play like a "short" par 4 in the summer.

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