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John_Conley

Walkability observations
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2007, 12:31:42 PM »
Garland, while you may think "the rest of the population is too sedentary", that's their market.

I'm 39, healthy, and weigh more than I should.  However, I had absolutely no trouble returning to the rink after 15 years and just completed a 35+ hockey season.  If I find it a challenging walk, what about anyone that has had a knee or hip replaced, is over 60 and overweight, or plays golf for recreation and not exercise?

Specifically:

* The course itself is pretty long.  Anyone ambitious enough to try the Navy (7109) or Teal (7585) tee box usually has to walk back and up to their marker.  The course was laid out for the Sand (6541) player.  This is the main reason we are reading about pace-of-play issues.  When it is busy there won't be anything even close to a 4-hr round here.
* All the par 3s seem to play like #3 (called "Blown Out") where a missed green usually finds someone trekking down into the morass.  With too-soft sand it can take someone a while to resurface.  
* Some holes are severely uphill.  #4, #7, #12 mainly.
* I actually found the severely downhill holes like #9 and #14 to be even harder to navigate.  Trying to get down the hill with a bag on uneven terrain wasn't easy and proved to be pretty stressful on the calves and ankle.

I walked.  I enjoyed it.  I'll walk it again if in the area.  However, comparing this to other courses across the country I'll say it is definitely in the top decile on the difficulty scale.  (Garland, I'll take your word for it that your course is even harder to trek.  Place that in the top decile too.)  Considering that golf cars aren't an option (I think it is walking only), they've purposely eliminated a good part of their prospective clientele.

Folks in the Pacific Northwest are generally hearty and more health-conscious than the normal American.  Doesn't Chambers aspire to attract players from far-flung places?  My impression is that they need to draw visitors and not just those that can make it by car.  Maybe I'm off on that.

13.8% tax is pretty hefty!

Garland Bayley

Re:Walkability observations
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2007, 01:46:44 PM »
Garland, while you may think "the rest of the population is too sedentary", that's their market.

I'm 39, healthy, and weigh more than I should.  However, I had absolutely no trouble returning to the rink after 15 years and just completed a 35+ hockey season.

At this point, I would remind you that a hockey rink is dead flat. :)

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If I find it a challenging walk, what about anyone that has had a knee or hip replaced, is over 60 and overweight, or plays golf for recreation and not exercise?

I am nearing 60, 70 lbs. overweight, with arthritic knees. I remind you that it is a sport. Those wanting only the amusement part of golf can play it on their computer.

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Specifically:

* The course itself is pretty long.  Anyone ambitious enough to try the Navy (7109) or Teal (7585) tee box usually has to walk back and up to their marker.  

I would have to go back and look to see if this is true. My impression was that you have to walk past Navy and Teal to reach Sand. Perhaps from 4 to 5 you go back, maybe a few others, but my recollection is that for the vast majority of holes, the Navy marker is the first and closest that you come to. On 17, it is definitely the harder walk to play Sand.

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The course was laid out for the Sand (6541) player.  This is the main reason we are reading about pace-of-play issues.  When it is busy there won't be anything even close to a 4-hr round here.

I think pace of play is about ego in this case not layout.

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* All the par 3s seem to play like #3 (called "Blown Out") where a missed green usually finds someone trekking down into the morass.  With too-soft sand it can take someone a while to resurface.  

You are probably right here about #3 and #9. Since I was on the dance floor there I did not observe this difficulty.

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* Some holes are severely uphill.  #4, #7, #12 mainly.

Severely? Only #12 begins to approach that designation. And it is short and over quick enough.

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* I actually found the severely downhill holes like #9 and #14 to be even harder to navigate.  Trying to get down the hill with a bag on uneven terrain wasn't easy and proved to be pretty stressful on the calves and ankle.

Admittedly walking downhill can be tough on muscles not used to walking inclines. I walk them all the time on my course and found #9 and #14 to be hardly severe. For me, severe is reserved for slopes you worry about your spikes holding on to.

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I walked.  I enjoyed it.  I'll walk it again if in the area.  However, comparing this to other courses across the country I'll say it is definitely in the top decile on the difficulty scale.  (Garland, I'll take your word for it that your course is even harder to trek.  Place that in the top decile too.)  Considering that golf cars aren't an option (I think it is walking only), they've purposely eliminated a good part of their prospective clientele.

On my last trip, I walked Hideout in UT, Black Mesa in NM, Rustic Canyon and Wildhorse in CA, and Eagle Point in OR. Hideout and Black Mesa are much harder walks than my home course or Chambers. Rustic Canyon and Eagle Point are similar, and Wildhorse easier. I guess Florida must be flatter than the mountain west. :)

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Folks in the Pacific Northwest are generally hearty and more health-conscious than the normal American.  Doesn't Chambers aspire to attract players from far-flung places?  My impression is that they need to draw visitors and not just those that can make it by car.  Maybe I'm off on that.

13.8% tax is pretty hefty!


Hey, ever come from out of town and visit Orlando? IMHO Florida has the taxation capital of the world. :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Craig Van Egmond

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2007, 02:04:28 PM »

John,
           If you think 13.8% is high, just wait to you rent a car at the airport!  Or get a hotel room in Seattle. Got to pay for those new stadiums somehow and tourists don't vote.


John_Conley

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2007, 02:21:34 PM »
Craig, I did rent a car!  Normally the company reimburses me when I travel, but this was a personal vacation.  You are right.  Taxes on hotel, car, etc... are very high.  Not to mention phone and cable bills.

Garland, I'm well aware of the taxes in Orlando.  I'm surprised people pay them.  However, sales tax here is just 6 to 7% depending on county.  In Seattle it is 9%, right?  That's very high.  Add 5% to that for Chambers and you have over $15 on the total.

Hit a drive down to the right on #4 and tell me that hole isn't SEVERELY uphill.  I actually think that word understates things.  I will concede that the course is MUCH MUCH MUCH less demanding of a walk if your ball stays on the grass.  Who does that?  I shot in the 30s on the back nine and am a decent player.  Still, I do miss shots.  Block one right on #8 and tell me that the hole isn't SEVERELY uphill.  Those pits out there are obscene in depth, compounded by extremely soft sand.  Trying to play out of a 4" deep footprint kind of ensures that you won't be chipping back in play and recovering easily.

What you don't seem to understand is that I haven't said this is the hardest course to walk in America.  I'm sure you can find others harder.  However, they don't allow golf cars and are priced at a point that it is unlikely to have many local or "mens club" type members.  It is 100 bucks for a county resident, right?  Out-of-towners will make up their tee sheet.  

Time will tell who is right.  I wounldn't be surprised to see some improved foot paths for the descent from elevated tees.

Finally, the back tees on holes 6-9 are 300 yards longer than the Sand tees.  They involve walking back.  Usually uphill.  Did you even notice the back tee on #11.  I had to look hard to find it.  SEVENTY-FIVE yards behind the tee for #11.  It is up behind the 10th green.  

Garland Bayley

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2007, 02:35:00 PM »
John,

I cheat on #8. I'm a lefty. My blocks go left.

I will agree there are penalties for failed risks out there. And, yes those penalties include severe terrain. Come to think of it, the righties did struggle a lot more than me. About time someone stopped pandering to righties.
 ;D

EDIT Just to put things in perspective, the severe terrain encountered in hazards, etc. is about as severe as a few green to tee walks at The Hideout.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 02:40:19 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2007, 02:44:57 PM »
John, play the Sand tees next time so you will have less to bitch about. It is a very good test from there as well. 6500 yards with a 2 plus club wind become 7000 yards. I am pleased you went and saw this great work. The construction was done by a company from Houston Texas and I might add a very flat part of Houston. They are across the street from Champions GC. They look ok for the experience there. It is as easy a walk as Olympic Lake is for me. Plenty of you guys have done that one. In fact, the walk back to the clubhouse at Olympic Club 18 trumps any walk I had at Chambers Bay.

Sean Leary

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2007, 07:01:38 PM »
As someone who lives in the general area, I will play it occasionally, but with the dues I pay at my home course, at $170 bucks a round and an hour to get there and 5.5 hour round I wont play that much.  Everyone will go play it once, butn i think a lot will wait until the speed goes up on the greens and the pace of play goes down.

From non-GCAers, I have gotten mixed reviews from locals, which surprised me some.  I think it is excellent.

Garland Bayley

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2007, 07:15:58 PM »
...
From non-GCAers, I have gotten mixed reviews from locals, which surprised me some.  I think it is excellent.

Their market is the people who would go play Bandon. It is fairly common to find people that dismiss playing Bandon out of hand. It does not surprise me some people would dismiss/not like Chambers Bay.

I think it is excellent, and it is cheaper than Bandon.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean Leary

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2007, 07:25:16 PM »
The question in our group was whether it is a better course than Bandon Dunes. Most thougt so, but I am unwilling to say that after just 1 play and 20+ at Bandon.

It will get a national draw of people for sure, at least to play it once.  it does however lack the "retreat" feel that you get when you are at Bandon.

Obviously, the Pierce County fee is more reasonable, but there are some excellent private clubs (including Coz's Oakbrook) that are VERY inexpensive to join.  For local serious golfers, it makes more sense to join one of the local clubs, in my opinion.

What are fees going down to in the winter?  Might be the time to play it, ala Bandon.

Garland Bayley

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2007, 07:51:43 PM »
...
Obviously, the Pierce County fee is more reasonable, but there are some excellent private clubs (including Coz's Oakbrook) that are VERY inexpensive to join.  For local serious golfers, it makes more sense to join one of the local clubs, in my opinion.
...

Clearly many of the people playing Bethpage Black belong to local clubs. Others are regular muni players. There are probably no regulars at Bethpage Black (from what I have read and heard about getting a tee time there). However, Bethpage Black gives them that opportunity to step up to something better from time to time.

I hope people see that kind of value in Chambers Bay.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John_Conley

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2007, 08:08:19 PM »
but i think a lot will wait until the speed goes up on the greens and the pace of play goes down.

Sean, I was dreading the slow green speeds after hitting practice putts.  However, it was quite nice when I was on the course.  It was possible to get down in two when facing those very difficult putts to holes near a crest.  Also, the greens are running very true so you can even make some of the 10+ footers.

I think there will be more bellyaching if green speeds run fast than there are with them in the 8' range.

Sean Leary

Re:Chambers Bay Teasers
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2007, 11:09:51 PM »
John C,

The greens were remarkably similar in speed to when I played Ballyneal last summer.  I know that those greens are up to 8 or 9 and I am sure CB will be as well. I think that is a pefect speed for both courses,

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