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W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2002, 10:43:52 AM »
While the idea of a tournament in Orondo, Bend or Bandon/Coos Bay is a nice dream and one I would personally love to see, the PGA Tour is NEVER going to place a tournament into markets that small.  There are simply not enough local golf fans or lodging to support the size of an event like the NEC.  

If you think that Sahalee gets mixed reviews here, I can only wonder what a course like Desert Canyon would get.  

I would love to see an event in Bend.  Crosswater, Broken Top or the other two courses in Sunriver would probably do pretty well as a test for the big boys!  

Bandon of course is everyones dream.  Probably not the best spot to hold a Medal Play event but it might be the best match play venue in the nation.  The US Amateur or the Ryder Cup would be spectacular.

Eugene CC must be the best of the non coastal courses in the Northwest.  Beauty, Some huge trees to give the NW feel, difficulty(with high green speeds) are a few of the attributes that make Eugene a really fine golf course.  A mjor event wouldn't fit on the property very well and the only open spaces have become a housing development ove rthe last decade or so.

A Tour event really requires a larger metro area.  Ghost Creek, The Reserve, The previously mentioned tracks in Washington are all possibilities.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2002, 11:09:58 AM »
I don't think you can completely write off this course just because of it's big trees which I assume some people relate to lack of "width".  I like width as much as anyone and the options it "can" create on a well designed golf course.  But "width" doesn't guarantee added strategy and subsequently a better design.  Some courses that have width are simply just easier and offer no strategic advantage/options because of it.  

Sahalee is considered tight by some people because they can't shape their golf shots.  If you can play a draw as well as a fade, hit low shots and high shots, … then you will find plenty of options and strategic interest at Sahalee.  Olympic for example, presents the same challenge and I don't hear anyone claiming that course is dog food!  

What is wrong with holes that require golf shots to be shaped right to left and/or left to right.  What's so bad about low knock down recovery shots that can be run up on the greens.  Many of the greens allow such a shot and furthermore, they all have interesting undulations.  The bunkering is not over done and most are well located.  The course doesn't really favor any one style of player, but to play well at Sahalee you must have command of a wide variety of golf shots.  

If you think Sahalee is less than a 6 (I give it a 7 which is just outside my personal Top 100), you really need to take a few more looks!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2002, 12:52:55 PM »
Mark:

Despite the overgrowth, as I've mentioned, Sahalee is definately in my top 100.  I think your 7 is a little light (especially if you work with fractions!).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2002, 12:59:06 PM »
My 7 is generous compared to what sounds like 3's and 4's from others  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2002, 09:45:53 PM »
Paul,
What architectural feature exists at Sahalee that makes it worthy of being in any magazine pole Top 100?

I need to know this so that I may look further to see what you are seeing in this place to give it such accolades.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2002, 10:26:14 PM »
Paul Richards:

I haven't seen Sahalee and can't offer any opinion of the course. But, a "7" rating is pretty high for any golf course, don't you think?

A higher rating would mean the course is worth a special trip to see. Should I fly from Cleveland just to see this course? If so, why? Why not just wait until I'm in the Seattle area again some time?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2002, 03:36:17 AM »
Tommy:

I mentioned that Sahalee makes my top 100.  To me, my top 100 starts with a "7".  So, by definition, Sahalee is a top 100 "7".

Tim:

If I were in Cleveland, I'd find any excuse to go to Seattle.  It's a beautiful place and this course is worth seeing.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2002, 03:48:16 AM »
Tommy and Tim:

The following are excerpts from my notes on my visit to Sahalee:

"...a real neat course, never seen such big firs and evergreens - like sequoia's!  ... PGA should be good, but I think the pro's will light it up light Kemper Lakes ... #1 may be one of the best starting holes I've yet seen (406 par four); #9 (213) is a strong finisher to front nine.  #10 (401) is a very interesting four par.  #12 (544) and #6 (512) are both good par 5's, with #11's green strangely covered in front by a number of massive trees.  #18 (535) should play as a very strong par 4 for the tourney.  Overall, smallish greens, with a number of them being two-tiered."

Nothing here jumps out at you, but, as I mentioned above, the TV telecast left a LOT to be desired - with no aerial shots, no fly-bys, no graphics.   The topography is really good, lots of land movement, and, of course, playing through sequoias is pretty neat.

Check it out.  Let us know what you think!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2002, 05:58:48 AM »
Tim,
A "7" just to clarify, by Doak's definition is a course worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles!  

Tommy,
What is it that you are looking for?  I commented on the interest and variety of shot making that the course requires.  I mentioned the undulations in the greens, the open approaches, the mix of dog legs, ... and of course the trees.  

I think too many people focus on the trees and miss some interesting golf holes.  
Mark

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2002, 07:29:28 AM »
Mark, et al:

I'm not missing anything about Sahalee to be totally candid. When you have a facility that has THAT many trees you have a profound impact on how a course will be received and how it unduly influences strategy when playing. Let's not be fooled by how the elite play a course and how it will play for others.

What's the difference between all the comments suggested at such courses as Fenway, Ridgewood, and other Northeast courses that have a significant amount of trees that bracket their holes? How does Sahalee get a free pass?

I can't see the course getting more than a 6.5 on the Doak scale and if people truly believe it belongs in their top 100 listing so be it. My only response is that they have not seen enough of what is out there to make that kind of inclusion. However, opinions are what they are.

There's a big difference is saying a course is worth seeing (Sahalee clearly is) and that a course is then worthy of top 100 consideration. The top 100 is such an exclusive club that it requires a unique blending of so many superior aspects. In my mind -- Sahalee is a fine test but a member of America's Best 100?

No.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2002, 11:02:33 AM »
Matt,
You say 6.5, I say 7 and we both have it out of our personal Top 100.  We're not far apart at all on this one!   All I'm saying is that it's not a dog track like some have inferred!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2002, 01:05:08 PM »
Matt:

This is exactly why the ratings lists were created - to generate interest, create a bit of controversy, and, of course, sell magazines.

You said:
>I can't see the course getting more than a 6.5 on the Doak
>scale and if people truly believe it belongs in their top 100
>listing so be it. My only response is that they have not seen
>enough of what is out there to make that kind of inclusion.

As a matter of fact, Sahalee IS in my personal top 100, and, for the record, I have played 72 of the Top 100 on Golf Digest's most recent list, and 62 of the Top 100 in the World on Golf Magazine's list.  

therefore I hope this qualifies me as having "seen enough" to make "that kind of inclusion."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tim Weiman

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2002, 01:14:46 PM »
Paul Richards:

I'm a much bigger fan of Vancouver, but will agree Seattle is quite nice.  Were I in town, most likely I'd want to visit Sahalee.

Mark Fine:

Paul seems to be suggesting the course is worth more than a "7", in other words, worth a plane ride not just a 100 mile trip. I wonder if he is just prejudice against Cleveland.....the town, not the golf course location!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2002, 01:18:39 PM »
Paul:

Glad to know you've played so many. I've played 92 on GD's list for what it's worth!

Just to be totally clear -- Sahalee is a fine layout. Is it top 100? In my book -- no! You see it differently -- great. That's what makes life interesting.

Can you tell me, in your estimation, where you would place it among your top Top 100? Is it in the Top 50? The Top 75? It would be helpful for me to understand your placement if you would list those courses within your top 100 that fall behind Sahalee.

If you took just the west coast states of Washington, Oregon and California where would you place Sahalee? Would it make a top ten? A top 20?

You also admitted in an earlier post that Sahalee is "severely over-treed." What other courses that are as heavily treed as Sahalee would you rate highly? You also said it is "over grown." Please let me know what you see in the value of "over grown" courses?

Many thanks! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2002, 01:29:46 PM »
Matt:

I haven't been to Oregon (yet), but have played many courses in California, and just a couple in Washington, Sahalee and Broadmoor.

In my personal estimation, Sahalee would fall somewhere right around the 70-75 area.

My reference to overgrown and over-treed means that there are just too many, although they are such impressive, Sequoia-like trees, that you almost feel like you are walking through a redwood forest or are somewhere in the original "King Kong" movie.

Looks like you'll beat me to 100 on the GD list, eh?  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2002, 01:30:43 PM »
Tim:

I've been to Cleveland, but have not golfed there.  I would love to come back to play the many great courses there.

Maybe next summer ....  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2002, 05:40:29 PM »
Paul R:

My point is a simple one when I asked you to compare Sahalee with other NW courses. In my mind, the only two lock choices for top 100 consideration when Washington and Oregon are linked together is Bandon and Pacific Dunes.

If you had a top ten for both states combined I don't doubt Sahalee would make the listing, but closer to the rear than to the front.

Paul, as I'm sure you are aware, the hosting of a major event is often times irrelevant to the quality of the course. In numerous instances sites are chosen for a host of reasons and sometimes the pedigree of the course is not always the utmost of considerations. Again, let me say that Sahalee is solid course but greatness for top 100 consideration is another matter. There are plenty of "A" students -- that doesn't mean that every "A" student gains acceptance into Yale and Harvard. That's how demanding, in my mind, acceptance into the elite fraternity of 100 top courses is.

Since you would place Sahalee in your top 70-75 range can you please list a few courses of distinction that are 76th ro 100th. I ask this because it gives me an idea of how you assess certain courses in terms of their overall quality. I truly appreciate your indulgence to my question. Thanks! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2002, 06:33:05 PM »
Matt:

Since this seems to be an exercise in my course-rating ability, here's my take on the top 100 from the latest GD list.

These courses are worse than Sahalee, IMHO, on this list:

Shoal Creek
Crooked Stick
Bellerive
Valhalla
Estancia
NCR
The Quarry at La Quinta
Stanwich
Long Cove
Sycamore Hills
World Woods - Pine Barrens
Atlantic

How about them apples?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2002, 09:19:11 PM »
Matt:

How about completing the same exercise?

Then let's move on.


We can just agree to disagree about Sahalee.
(a neat rhyme?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2002, 08:57:08 AM »
Paul R:

Many thanks for your response. Without having people jot down the names of other courses it becomes quite difficult to see how they assess one course versus that of others. I've been asked the same thing by others on GCA and don't see it as an intrusion but as a clear indicator on what attributes a person places priority in looking at any course.

I don't disagree with your list although I would still have Long Cove, The Quarry at LaQuinta and World Woods / Pine Barrens finish ahead of Sahalee.

Let's just say Paul we agree to disagree although our disagreement is not really by that much.

If you have not played Desert Canyon in Orondo I would urge you to do so. I believe it's a really fine layout that gets far too little exposure because it's so far off the beaten path.

Have an enjoyable holiday weekend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2002, 04:20:34 PM »
8)

Glad you guys have worked this out... I will definitely check out all the Pacific Northwest courses mentioned, and start my next fifty listing...

I wonder if anyone would ever consider a topic of the overcastness of Quail Hollow near Painesville (just east of Cleveland)?  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2002, 05:38:48 PM »
:(

Y'all will be interested to know that Inverness has taken out some 700 trees to make room for the 2003 USGA Senior Open grandstands and people handling infrastructure.  What would Donald Ross say?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2002, 08:29:35 PM »
txsteve:


you said:
>Inverness has taken out some 700 trees to make room for
>the 2003 USGA Senior Open grandstands and people
>handling infrastructure.  What would Donald Ross say?

I think he would say "Nice start" ;) ;)


Inverness is magnificent.  I played it last month and the 700 trees are in no way missed.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2002, 08:30:23 PM »
Matt:

I'd love to return to Washington to play Seattle Golf Club and Desert Canyon.

How about TPC at Snoqualmie?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2002, 04:01:26 AM »
Paul R:

Have not played TPC Snoqualmie but I believe Desert Canyon will certainly be of interest. Set in the Columbia River Valley the course is far removed from what you normally see in the immediate environment of the greater Seattle area.

The remote location in Orondo prevents anything of major importance going there.

Lots of opportunities can take place in the NW. Look at the fanfare and justified hype that has happened in such a short time with Bandon & Pac Dunes.

We shall see ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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