A US Open Rota

[David Stamm]

I know this was talked about a little in another thread, but I'm curious what everyone thinks about which courses are legitimate, permanent fixtures for the Open. There is obviously courses that are better than others, and courses that are default choices simply to have a venue in a geographic area (Torrey Pines), so which are the best courses and cite why? I tried coming up with my own list in my mind and I really can't come up with more than 6 as of now.

Shinnecock Hills
Oakmont
Winged Foot (West)
Pinehurst #2
Pebble Beach
Olympic-Lake




I know many feel Bethpage Black is going to be a great venue for years to come, but let's at least see it one more time before annointing it. I think Merion East will gain it's rightful place again after we see it in 2013, but it hasn't hosted since 1981. I think Riviera can/should be part of a short list, but hasn't hosted since Hogan's victory in 1948, so until it hosts it again, we won't know. Can anyone come up with more?


BTW, I think Torrey will be a one and done venue and the USGA will explore Riviera again.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

You missed out on the midwest section having an event every 10 years too.

The ones you named are quite solid -- frankly the rota doesn't need to be much deeper than that.

[redanman]

Johnny Miller, architectural sage that he is suggested last time SHCC was used that the USGA for its Open alternate SH and PB.  After last week I got the impression that he wanted:

Oakmont
Oakmont and
Oakmont

I think Johnny must know something we don't.  



Actually

BB is a very good venue and will prove worthy in 2009.  Annoint it already.
I'd vote no on P #2 and O-Lake from suggestions so far. P #2 is too unidimensional and the O always seems to produce fluke winners according to some.

Maybe add

PGA West Stadium
Victoria National (with floating grandstands)
A restored Oakland Hills
Lakota Canyon


and perhaps the favorites from here:
Sand Hills
Friar's Head
Old Sandwich
Colorado Golf Club

[Matt MacIver]

Is there a rota and "sub-rota"?  Maybe the core groups get an Open every 10-12 years and others get one every 15-20, like Congressional, Oakland Hill, Brookline, Baltusrol.  

[David Stamm]

David:

You missed out on the midwest section having an event every 10 years too.

The ones you named are quite solid -- frankly the rota doesn't need to be much deeper than that.

Matt, I know and it really wasn't a slap to the midwest, it's just that I couldn't come up with a legit fixture-type of course. I considered Southern Hills, but before the Goose won there, it hadn't hosted since '77 when Green won AND the USGA doesn't really like going to places that the PGA is going to as well. Of course there are exceptions to that rule. Oakland Hills? It hasn't hosted since '96 and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember if it's hosting anytime soon, and they seem to be on board with the PGA. I think Olympia Fields is a fine course, but I think the USGA will experiment with Cog Hill if given the chance, it will fit with the desire to go to public courses. I think Medinah is in the same boat as Oakland Hills, they seem to have aligned themsleves with the PGA. Other than those, I just can't think of a real contender. There are some great possibilities in Ohio, but I think we would've seen them award one already to that area if it could've worked. Am I missing any?

[tlavin]

When Butler National changes its membership bylaws and allows women members, it will become the "permanent" Midwest site for the US Open.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Unfortunately, there are people who see the US Open as a traveling road show that must be politically correct and make periodic visits to all locations of the USA.

I don't agree with that simply because the quality of the course dictates the action -- not the precise location.

Candidly, having a reduced rotation would only add to the mystic and lore of the US Open - having an additional one or two sites is fine but when you see the likes of Torrey Pines thrown into the mix after an Oakmont you can see me wincing at such a course of action.

[David Stamm]

When Butler National changes its membership bylaws and allows women members, it will become the "permanent" Midwest site for the US Open.

Is this possible Terry? Could it work there? In the end, is it really any better than OF or CH?

[David Stamm]

 - having an additional one or two sites is fine but when you see the likes of Torrey Pines thrown into the mix after an Oakmont you can see me wincing at such a course of action.

I totally agree Matt. And I live here in San Diego. I'll be the first to admit it. I wish that wasn't the case, but there it is. Seeing the course on the Open list with the others reminds me of the song on Sesame Street, "one of these things doesn't belong here, one of these things just isn't the same."

[redanman]

This thread is already looking like a third re-run (I wish the search were better on here, too!)

I tried ......

[David Stamm]

This thread is already looking like a third re-run (I wish the search were better on here, too!)

I tried ......

Sorry Bill, I didn't bother to look.

[wsmorrison]

I cannot imagine an Old Guard private club wanting an Open every 8-12 years in this era of commercialism.  Yes, it does allow some serious capital projects, but it is too much of a disturbance for the members and the course.  Every 15 years seems about right for the Old Guard courses.  

Resorts, new privates and public golf courses do not have the same sensibilities or priorities.  Let them have their day in the sun more often.  I agree with William Flynn, design some great courses dedicated to the US Open owned and operated by the USGA.  I nominate myself to be the chief executive of this golf and real estate division    

[Mike Benham]

Olympic-Lake

As much as I enjoy getting beaten up by The Lake™, I can't see it as a worthy US Open site after 2012.  Even with a few new tees, it will barely be 7,000 yards and unless the PGA Tour's new fangled drug testing reveals some savory tidbits, it might be considered to short.

I suspect that Pebble might be considered to short also but it secures its spot because of history.

[David Stamm]

Olympic-Lake

As much as I enjoy getting beaten up by The Lake™, I can't see it as a worthy US Open site after 2012.  Even with a few new tees, it will barely be 7,000 yards and unless the PGA Tour's new fangled drug testing reveals some savory tidbits, it might be considered to short.

I suspect that Pebble might be considered to short also but it secures its spot because of history.

I agree with your assesment of OL, I hear that it isn't even the best course around the lake there, but it has been consistently in the rota. It's merits as a legit test for today's best players is another matter. As far as history comparisons, I think Olympic has a little more than PB. Remember, PB didn't host the Open until '72. OL began it's infamous reputation for slaying the favs. in '55.

[Kalen Braley]

Not sure if the comment about Lakota was serious or not, but the course is short and throw in elevation changes, its far too short.

While I've yet to see it with TP being a one and done, and Olympic becoming too short, it appears Chambers just may have an outside shot at cracking the list.  I hope to get up there this fall to play it.

[Pete Lavallee]

BTW, I think Torrey will be a one and done venue and the USGA will explore Riviera again.

When Tiger wins by a landslide next year and the profits exceed what was raked in at BB, do you really think the USGA will want to go to Riviera; a course where Tiger has never won and one that can't support the tented village that rakes in all that cash?

[Tom Huckaby]

What's wrong with introducing a new and different course to the "rota" every so often?  As much as I was looking forward to Oakmont (totally different from 13 years ago due to tree removal), I looked forward to Bethpage, and I am really looking forward to Torrey Pines.  To me it's fun to see how the pros fare on new courses every once in awhile... And I have to believe Torrey set up for USOpen will be totally different than the Torrey they see each winter.  I'm really curious as to how devilish they will make it.

Thus if I were king, I do a rota like others have suggested, but throw in a new wild card every decade or so.  These can be one time only....

TH

[David Stamm]

What's wrong with introducing a new and different course to the "rota" every so often?  As much as I was looking forward to Oakmont (totally different from 13 years ago due to tree removal), I looked forward to Bethpage, and I am really looking forward to Torrey Pines.  To me it's fun to see how the pros fare on new courses every once in awhile...

Thus if I were king, I do a rota like others have suggested, but throw in a new wild card every decade or so.  These can be one time only....

TH

Hucks, I like seeing new ones too, but it's played every Feb. on the West Coast swing. It won't be that different when the USGA comes to town.

[Tom Huckaby]

David - maybe you're right, I don't know.  I'm just really curious to find out.  I have a feeling they're damn well gonna try to make it very different.  As you can see I edited my post while you were typing...

In any case, perhaps Torrey isn't the perfect example for my theory... but I do enjoy seeing new ones once in awhile.  I'd like to see the R&A do that also.  Hoylake last year was a blast.  And I know that wasn't completely new, but close enough.

[David Stamm]

BTW, I think Torrey will be a one and done venue and the USGA will explore Riviera again.

When Tiger wins by a landslide next year and the profits exceed what was raked in at BB, do you really think the USGA will want to go to Riviera; a course where Tiger has never won and one that can't support the tented village that rakes in all that cash?

IF he wins, and granted, he will be the heavy fav. And I don't think the USGA really cares whether Tiger has struggled at Riviera or not. Granted, the logistics are alot easier to manage at TP, but that never stopped them at Shinny. And that sure isn't going to stop them at Merion, where space is tight. I just think Riviera is VASTLY superior to TP and Riviera's connection to Hogan is the type of thing that the USGA has a hard time resisting. I like our course here Pete, I just don't think it's on the level as the typical Open courses.

[Tom Huckaby]

But David, see, I agree with you as pertains to Riviera.  But that's another one with been there/done that all over it.  Hell they just had a PGA there a few years ago.

I know SoCal wants to host a US Open...

Why not do it at a course that's new and different, even it it's not the perfect venue?  Then you wait for a changing of the guard at LACC, and host it there some day if you really want to prove the southern part of the state really does have a perfect Open venue....

[David Stamm]

But David, see, I agree with you as pertains to Riviera.  But that's another one with been there/done that all over it.  Hell they just had a PGA there a few years ago.

I agree, it's no stranger to the viewers out there, but it's a much better course with a much better pedigree.


The PGA, a FEW years ago? '95=12 years. Dimensia setting in already?

[Tom Huckaby]

Few, decade plus two, hey what's a little exaggeration among friends.

In any case, I concur Riviera would be the best SoCal venue.  But I'm actually looking forward more to seeing what they do with Torrey. And the whole idea of having it another public course appeals to me too.

But you know, SoCal just giving up this whole idea in favor of the superior half of the state works for me also.  We have no shortage of worthy venues up here.


 

[David Stamm]

   We have no shortage of worthy venues up here.


 

I have no come back.........

[Kalen Braley]

If you want a preview of Torrey next year, this is what it'll be like...