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Ryan Farrow

What has the ASGCA done for students?
« on: June 21, 2007, 01:13:47 AM »
I have been thinking about this for quite a while now and find myself wondering why the ASGCA lacks the type of student involvement that other organizations such as the GCSAA, ASLA, or even the golf course builders association (which started offering scholarships and mentoring opportunities to students pursuing golf course design).

When I first thought about pursuing golf course architecture the ASGCA website was one of the first resources I used to find out just how reasonable of a profession this was. And unlike the GCSAA there is no kind of student membership, scholarships, or even a direction to send us kids. Has there ever been any talk within the society about this issue or is the society only member oriented?

Perhaps this is a good thing and it truly separates those who are truly motivated and passionate about this profession but I am sure there are some truly talented people who have been turned off of gca because of a lack of direction and understanding.

 

Ian Andrew

Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2007, 08:21:59 AM »
Ryan,

When I phoned 20+ years ago, they provided me with all their literature and some free advice. I also got contact information for a couple of golf course architects that were local so that I could talk to them for additional help.

Tom Doak talked about writing all the architects for help and how helpful Geoff Cornish was. For me it was Doug Carrick, whom I eventually worked for. That contact did not come from the ASGCA - your first job usually takes a lot of effort in this business because the positions are so hard to find.

I take at least one call or email a week from people looking for advice or to sit down and talk about the business. I've given away my Anatomy of a Golf Course book a half a dozen times already.

With the rise of the internet, everything you could ever need to help you is available on line. There is a lot of advice to be had very easily - here in particular, so I'm not sure what additional help you think they should offer.

The ASGCA is not an organization with a big budget and has a tiny sliver of membership compared with the Golf Superintendent Association.

How would you want a student member to work?

(I'm a member of the ASGCA)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 08:22:49 AM by Ian Andrew »

TEPaul

Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2007, 08:25:38 AM »
Ryan:

One of the reasons the ASGCA probably isn't like those other associations you mentioned is because the ASGCA isn't an association. It's a society.

One probably needs to understand the differences better to answer your questions. A thumbnail explanation might be an association is basically like a trade group. A society is sort of like a club.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 08:27:46 AM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2007, 08:39:02 AM »
Ryan:

I am sure you are right that there are some people who have been turned off a career in golf course architecture because of a lack of direction and understanding.

The truth is that anyone who gives up because they're turned off probably wouldn't have succeeded anyway.  It is a tough business to survive in, very competitive, and you are only going to find design work (as opposed to a job in somebody's office) if you are very determined and very much a self-starter.  Nobody's going to hand a job to you just because you're talented -- unless you've won a couple of major championships, that is.

If your point is that some architects are unhelpful to students, you are correct -- some are too protective of their own turf because they think they already have plenty of competition.  There have got to be several members of the ASGCA who can't find work right now, and you can bet they aren't in favor of encouraging students into the business; but while that may be a selfish act on their part it's also an indication of the reality of the business.  That's probably why the Society as a whole does not welcome student members.

However I will leave the final word on the subject to what Geoff Cornish wrote to me in 1979 -- there is always room in the business for someone with real talent and a passion for the game.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 09:27:07 AM »
I would imagine that golf architecture is like most other creative careers:  it's hard to get to the top and the financial gap between those at the top and everyone else in the profession is probably pretty large.  For every Emiril Lagasse there are hundreds of people slaving away in restaurant kitchens for very low wages.  They do it because they enjoy it and dream of getting their own restaurant some day, which most never do.  These careers tend to be risky and one needs to be driven, talented and lucky to succeed in them.

Most of us are in careers involving less emotional commitment where you can get by without being particularly talented, driven or lucky.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 10:25:45 AM »
TEPaul,

Merriam Online defines a Society as "a voluntary association of individuals for common ends; especially : an organized group working together or periodically meeting because of common interests, beliefs, or profession."

Nothing there about being a club, and ASGCA fits the bill.

They define association as "an organization of persons having a common interest : see SOCIETY"

Basically, they are the same, with the fancier term used to denote professions generally, and associations used for trades, like electricians. But, in either case, they meet periodically to work together on common issues.

As you know, I am an ASGCA member and past president, and I usually cringe at sideways swipes at our society, including calling us a "club."  Such is just not true, either by the dictionary or in real life.

As to the original question, Ian and to a lesser degree, Tom, is right - resources are tight and students are lower priority than the existing members.  We have discussed just how proactive we want to be, such as the EIGCA in developing the next generation.  

It seems to me that the US and the Euros have completely different understandings as to the way to prepare young folk for careers.  I read where in Europe, they keep trying to ID strengths and push kids into certain areas much earlier.  Here, we use a much messier, random process, and many people don't sort out their desires until college - or later!  

In general, it doesn't seem to be a big enough field to warrant a lot of formal training outside existing landscape design programs, which can sometimes allow students special projects in golf, if desired.

Add to that the fact that we have somehow populated the golf architect world with some pretty talented people from diverse background and that suggests enough is being done.  However, ASGCA does have some general info and a listing of LA programs for those interested.  Also, if a young student professes an interest in becoming a gca, their name is pubished in the newsletter for all members to see, but that would be a matter of extraordinary timing.  

Individually, ASGCA members have hired hundreds or thousands of young gca's over the years, many who have gone on to be members, and/or have otherwise successful careers.  If you count that, then ASGCA does a lot for aspiring young professionals.

My personal story is similar to Tom and Ian's (and most others)  When I was 12, but still certain I was going to be a gca, my dad happened to see the press release saying ASGCA had moved their HQ to our hometown of Chicago in the Tribune.  He wrote for info from them, and then the NGF and came home one day and piled it on my bed.  I spent days pouring over the copies of articles. I suspect the net might provide a similar experience, but I was happier than a kid who sent away for a secret decoder ring!  I called every Chicago gca (including a then retired Langford, then in Florida) and eventually went to work with Killian and Nugent, also getting other offers including from Art Hills.

BTW, as Tom D says, the first test is not letting anything deter you.  At least a hundred people will tell you not to do it (including, in my case, both parents and several LA professors) and there will be a thousand roadblocks.  If you are wondering what others are going to do for you to help you reach your goal, well.........

As to student members, its really a practical matter.

First, the group has always been about practicing architects.

Second, most of our interaction comes at our meeting, which have always been about our own continuing education.  Frankly, our meeting agendas are pretty tight right now, with not enough time to devote to teaching students.

Third, any students attending presumably wouldn't have enough experience or professional level knowledge to pick up much from many presentations we hear.  Although, there would be some valuble things, like our reviews of the history of golf design in whatever area we are in.

Lastly, the meetings are expensive to get to and attend. I wonder if we invited any students, if any could really afford to come?

« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 10:33:00 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 10:26:25 AM »
Ryan: On my side of the business we have an expression; "You can alsways find the funds and finance a good project,; it's the good project's that are more difficult to find".

That said; by now you have read enough on this and other sites to know perhaps what is involved in the design profession.  Here is how I got my start (not course design but land planning; as my educational background is similar to Tom Doak's); I offered to intern one summer for someone for free, but earned college credit for the work.  The advantage was that I had:
1. A motivated mentor/boss who was willing to instruct, not just use me for menial tasks.
2. An obvious interest in the craft.
3. The need for college credits to graduate on time.
4. A second job to actually earn money after the daily intership was completed.

If you are successful in landing an internship, you need to treat it as a job; get in early, stay late and absorb all you can.  Even if your mentor/boss can't offer you a position upon completion, if you do the above, don't you think he/she will pick up the phone to call collegues to see if something is availble to someone who has worked so hard?

Good luck.

TEPaul

Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 10:56:09 AM »
JeffB:

I didn't exactly say the ASGCA is the same thing as a club. I only said it is more like a club than those other associations mentioned who presumably everyone in the business can join if they want to. Is that true of the ASGCA?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 11:29:12 AM »
Ryan,

I would agree with the previous comments about not taking no for an answer and being persitent.  As one who works in the tech industry, I've had to be very proactive and continue to push even as I'm told no over and over again.

I've even known one potential employer to initially refuse everyone and only consider the ones who were persitent enough to call back again, even after initially being rejected.  It really was one of the tests they had to pass before being hired on.

As tech jobs are a lot more prevelant than gca jobs, I could only imagine how much more persitent one would have to be in that field.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 11:30:08 AM by Kalen Braley »

wsmorrison

Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 11:42:48 AM »
From the ASGCA website:

Membership in ASGCA signifies that an architect is primarily dedicated to the profession of golf course design, has acquired sound technical training, has completed not less than eight years of practical experience in golf course architecture and designed at least five 18-hole golf courses, and is recognized by the other members as a competent professional.

Simply put, ASGCA members are the cream of the crop when it comes to golf course architects. The membership process is thorough and peer-reviewed; only 176 golf course architects in the world lay claim to this prestigious designation.

In addition, ASGCA members abide by standards of professional practice and a stringent code of ethics. These standards set for the golf course architect’s role in contract negotiations and his or her responsibilities to the client. Many public agencies and entities have recognized that the ASGCA membership constitutes the highest professional standards in golf course design. How does a golf course architect become an ASGCA member?

Every ASGCA member must meet a set of criteria in order to complete the rigorous two-year long application process. In fact, the standards are so strict that the average age of the new ASGCA member elected was 46 in 2006. In addition to being a citizen of Canada, Mexico or the United States and working for a firm based in one of these countries, all ASGCA members must meet the following criteria:

    * Be at least 28 years of age and been practicing golf course architecture for a minimum of eight years

    * Have designed at least five 18-hole equivalents, three of which must have opened in the past five years

    * Adhere to a strict professional Code of Ethics (PDF)

Peer Review

ASGCA members are very involved in the review of each potential member’s application. Four of the five representative courses submitted on an application are evaluated in person by an ASGCA member. The member studies plans of the course, interviews construction personnel, club management and either walks or plays the course with the applicant.

In addition to the course evaluations, each applicant must be sponsored by three ASGCA members. The sponsors are members who can personally vouch for the character, professional integrity and high level of applied architecture skill of the applicant.

Does every member of the ASGCA meet the stringent qualifications, including those on staff at the larger firms?  How much due diligence is involved in the peer review prior to admissions?  What peer review, if any, is applied to each and every subsequent design project by member architects?  Are the "cream of the crop" all members of the society?  Do any applicants meet the requirements but are denied admission?  Are there examples where the good of the profession is subordinated by the good of the society?  

For members of the ASGCA, please consider that these are not statements but rather questions (leading perhaps) not meant to be indictments.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 11:48:00 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 11:50:28 AM »
TEPaul,

Sort of like a club, exactly like a club....I read the club part.  And besides, a society (or association) is simply not a club.  It has real (abeit sometimes undefined at times) purpose and work it can accomplish. Its not like we get together for Canasta.

I am not sure of the admission requirements to any other professional group, except ASLA, where a degree and employment is required for regular membership, and there are student memberships for those in accredited schools.

ASGCA has a membership process, and anyone is entitled to apply, once the membership committee determines that they meet the minimum requirements of having designed five golf courses, under the by laws.  From there, there is a review process that is probably more stringent than other trade associations and includes work review, client interviews, etc.

I am not sure how that developed, but the five course rule  (occaisionally modified or clarified) has been in place since the inception of ASGCA in 1947.  I can only surmise that the limited size of the profession at that time led them to set up the criteria a bit differently than AIA, but in all other ways, I believe that AIA was their model for a professional society.

We have tried for about 20 years (when I was on the membership committee) to involve as many members as possible in the process, formalize it, refine it, explain it to applicants and make it consistent so that all applicants are treated equally and fairly.  In part, it's a practical matter of the profession having grown enough that we really don't know all the applicants, but it also combats the sometimes true (in the old days) and often misconstrued ideas that old members sit around the bar and arbitrarily decide who gets in and who doesn't.  We know how important it is to anyone who applies.

Believe me, on one has spent more time than I over those years thinking about ways to make the process the best it can be.  It still isn't perfect, but its pretty good, given the by laws set up 60 years ago. So, being in the biz doesn't guarantee membership, but that still doesn't make us a club, IMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 12:12:19 PM »
Wayne,

Our posts cross. I don't mind the questions, other than my gut feel that I need to respond, versus my other gut feel that I have real work to do today......Here goes:

Does every member of the ASGCA meet the stringent qualifications, including those on staff at the larger firms?

I presume so.  I can personally recall some events where a member struggled to even recommend an associate for membership because they didn't feel that this person had enough field experience, even though he had been involved in a certain number of projects.  To a degree, we must trust the principal when he sponsors an employee for membership, but they get the same peer review as all others.  I can recall two examples of high profile members having their employees denied membership on the first application for not meeting requirements of the review.

"How much due diligence is involved in the peer review prior to admissions?"

A lot and that is the heart of the refinement process.  As your copy of the process says, at least four members review a course with the member, and its owners reps at different times to get a read on how involved that applicant was.  If any doubts arise, the fifth can be reviewed as well.

After that, the applicant goes through an interview with the executive committee.  Over the years, we have developed a list of questions (although they have some flexibility) that are posed by the executive committee.  They are a mix of philosophical and technical, and designed to illustrate just how knowledeable the applicant is.

For example, the question of "What % do design cupping areas on a green" tripped up one applicant.  While interviewers would accept any particular range of answers from 1-3% (and maybe more if Mr. Doak showed up and said, I do them at 4%, in the name of knowing we are all different) this applicant stumbed to the conclusion that he did them in "standard range" of "you know, 9, 10, 11 or 12%)

It was pretty clear this applicant was sort of hanging around, but not doing the work from that (and other answers)

What peer review, if any, is applied to each and every subsequent design project by member architects?  

Successful applicants go through the same process after two years, with two more courses being evaluated.  We really haven't had a case where a full member was deemed to get less competent over the years!

"Are the "cream of the crop" all members of the society? "

No, but they have to apply to get in.  There have always been a few who simply aren't joiners and we can't force them to.  In the old days, there are some cases where it was suspected that ego, competition or personality conflict kept a member out.  The group is big enough now that those competitors can simply sit in another part of the room and not interact.

"Do any applicants meet the requirements but are denied admission?"

If they have five courses, and pass reviews listed above, the most likely reason for denial are persistant reports of unethical behavior.  This will always be a gray area, and the memberhip committee has spent more time tracking down the facts behind any of these kinds of rumors.  I can say that if it comes from one member, and it appears to be just a vendetta, that we ignore it.  If there are outside corroborations, we typically err in favor of not allowing someone with even minor questions to be voted in.  

Occaisionally, last minute questions come up on the floor about the application, and if not too serious, the application is tabled, or voted down, always without predijuce.  In a few cases, where applicants have just the minimum number of courses (and by rule, three must have been in the last five years to insure we are taking a currently active gca) they get tabled, and then don't have those recent courses available to qualify when the rest of their application meets muster.

There are a few sad cases out there where the applicant runs into insurmountable problems and might be (or probably is) qualified, but sits on the cusp, from the ASGCA point of view.  They probably feel they are unjustly denied, and one downside of the longer, more complete process is that anyone who goes through it and doesn't get in has spent a lot of time and emotional energy.  Thus, we do have our detractors in the biz.


"Are there examples where the good of the profession is subordinated by the good of the society?"

Not only can't I think of an example where this has happened, I can't think of an example of how it could happen.

Hope that answers your questions, but I have to run.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

wsmorrison

Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2007, 12:14:47 PM »
Jeff,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, I do appreciate it.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2007, 01:42:49 PM »
To widen the market and to narrow the competition is always the interest of the dealers ... It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public...

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, 1776



Ian Andrew

Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2007, 05:27:06 PM »
Tony,

Funny, I missed the meeting about "world domination" - must have been when I snuck over to the Tuft's archives. Being a member has never brought me work, and I never got shut out before because I was not a member.

I have a group of friends through being a member who a similar in age and experience where we share information on how to to better. We share marketing ideas, design theories, and meet to play unusual courses which we discuss in detail.  I have even collaborated with one and expect to the same with another.

I also have the same relationship with a couple of non-members who I like and appreciate just as much.

Pretty dark stuff huh - after all look at those crazy jackets - not the clothing of overlords really is it?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2007, 10:21:35 PM »
As for Ryan's question, I think we are trying to do more for the profession. But, as was pointed out, it is a very small organization and the bulk of the operating costs come from the 175 members. AT our office, our intern this summer came from a referral that was ASGCA-related. I consider this a good ASGCA "program", even if it was csual in nature.

I have often thought a student program would be a neat idea. Ryan, if you might put forth a brief — I will review it and see what might be done to implement it.

Tom P. — ASGCA is the same as the ASLA or AIA, only much, much smaller.

Wayne — Several questions. Jeff answered them, but here are mine (much shorter!)

1. Does every member of the ASGCA meet the stringent qualifications, including those on staff at the larger firms?  Yes.

2. How much due diligence is involved in the peer review prior to admissions?  A lot. There are evaluators of courses, and sponsors who must attest to ethics, character and professionalism.

3. What peer review, if any, is applied to each and every subsequent design project by member architects? After one becomes an associate member, they must apply for regular membership. Their subsequent courses are reviewed by the Membership Committee. Beyond that, as with any organization, one's conduct is subject to ethics standards.

4. Are the "cream of the crop" all members of the society?  Not in my opinion, but it is close. Tom Doak, for example, is not a member. I think he would be a good member and have a lot to contribute. Phil Smith from Weiskopf's office is now an associate member. I felt that office should be represented, and now it is. There are probably a dozen others that would make great members from among designers who are now now members.

5. Do any applicants meet the requirements but are denied admission? To not be accepted means that one or more of the requirements is lacking.

6.  Are there examples where the good of the profession is subordinated by the good of the society?  Not in my opinion. One reason is that the ASGCA is made up of diverse people with diverse backgrounds. While it is possible for a president or board member to take a position that would go against the profession, I cannot imagine that being very smart. I think the actions of the ASGCA have been honorable and well meaning. I think tehre will always be someone in the decision-making process to temper potentially bad decisions.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 10:26:52 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Ryan Farrow

Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 11:25:29 PM »
Thanks for all of the responses so far. I am glad to hear that people like Forrest are actually thinking about getting the organization involved with students. I think anyone that has tried to reach out to architects have always gotten a good response, it seems the majority will at least take the time to give some thoughtful responses which is always nice. Internships on the other hand are hard to find in this industry, which is strange. I think potential golf course architects are some of the most dedicated and passionate students among any profession.

Forrest, I would like to take you up on your offer and will try and give you a more detailed summary of my suggestions. One of the big things I would like to see are recommended classes that students could take. It seems like every year there are at least 9 empty credit hours that I really don’t know what to do with. Of course I try and take classes that will somehow relate to this profession but I often come up empty or I find out that the class is not very useful. I have few other ideas that I will try and e-mail to you in the next week; hopefully we could get the ball rolling on this and get some other members to help push this forward.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2007, 11:37:46 PM »
START QUOTE
Funny, I missed the meeting about "world domination" - must have been when I snuck over to the Tuft's archives. Being a member has never brought me work, and I never got shut out before because I was not a member.

I have a group of friends through being a member who a similar in age and experience where we share information on how to to better. We share marketing ideas, design theories, and meet to play unusual courses which we discuss in detail.  I have even collaborated with one and expect to the same with another.

I also have the same relationship with a couple of non-members who I like and appreciate just as much.

Pretty dark stuff huh - after all look at those crazy jackets - not the clothing of overlords really is it?
END

Ian,

In one word...overblown, and then trying to cloak the initial statement with humor. Good ploy, especially when skating on thin ice.

First, nobody spoke of world domination (you really ought to read Wealth of Nations) but ASGCA Code has infected other like groups with silly nonsense that is designed to thwart competitors. (Why do ASGCA members run about and tell potential clients non-ASGCA types are not qualified? Ask TEPaul about his experience, and what was said about Coore-Crenshaw... it was on the old format of golfclubatlas.com... I have a text copy somewhere) I do remember reading about some ASGCA member warning a certain author-architect he couldn't continue writing if he sought membership. Are these rare incidents? LOL.

So tell me Ian, was Adam Smith right? I'd say so.

Like Smith noted, you can't stop such organizations from being formed, but their general purpose is to keep people out and tighten the market.

The ASGCA was founded on these Smithian warnings about trade groups. Brad Klein noted not too many years ago the cartel roots of the ASGCA. Look at your code and tell me why they restrict basic human rights (and act upon them)?

All that sharing? You don't require an organization to share, but you do need one to act in the opposite manner.


Ryan,

I think the talk about getting students involved is a bit like the song about affordable golf courses and minimalism. I'll believe it when I see it. Having said that, I don't believe the ASGCA has to do anything. In fact it might be better if they don't. Those that really want it should have to go out and get it. There are enough avenues available, just pick a few and go for it.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 11:48:52 PM by Tony Ristola »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2007, 11:57:19 PM »
Tony — I have never known the specifics of your displeasure with ASGCA, but it seems to be well known. My recommendation to you is that you try and temper your comments — and stick to current events and personal observations. I do not think that repeating second-hand comments from others will bring you any benefits.

Ryan has asked a valid question. As someone who is not an ASGCA member, maybe you can provide some constructive ideas on how you feel the ASGCA might assist students...and do this from a perspective that is different from mine, Jeff's or Ian's.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2007, 12:10:12 AM »
Forrest,

QUOTE
I have never known the specifics of your displeasure with ASGCA
END

Check out your code; a document of restricting free speech.

QUOTE
My recommendation to you is that you try and temper your comments
END

Precisely the point. Can't make any comment that might bring the group into question. Wonder what effect this would have on membership chances? And with that, is your organization one that favors those that tow the party line? Seems so?

Why not Forrest, live with a society that embraces free speech? It's a competitive world, and so long as the ASGCA has kooky rules on the books, those in line with the warnings of Adam Smith, it deserves to be criticized. I think they've done tremendous damage, as restricting speech always does.

I didn't know golf architecture was important to our national security, which is the only case I know of for restricting free speech. (OK, a second, usually under a confidentiality agreement of some sort; company secrets).

If you didn't notice, I did answer the question as well. If you missed it let me repeat it in short. I don't think the ASGCA should do a darn thing for students. There are enough avenues open... if you want in the business, walk down a few of them.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 12:12:47 AM by Tony Ristola »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2007, 12:11:45 AM »
Does not play well with others. May well be bitter to the end.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 12:12:20 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2007, 12:14:27 AM »
WARNING!

ASGCA Criticism is off limits. Not allowed. Verboten.

Please check their code for further detail.

LOL.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2007, 12:19:15 AM »
So, we have one vote for ASGCA to do nothing. I am guessing that Ryan was not looking for that suggestion, but is should be considered. If there are other ideas it would be good to hear them.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2007, 09:02:43 AM »
WARNING!

ASGCA Criticism is off limits. Not allowed. Verboten.

Please check their code for further detail.

LOL.

Tony,

Just in case the readers don't see the LOL part, I will add that there is nothing in the code saying you or anyone can't critisize ASGCA.  If there was, we couldn't enforce it!  Free speech lives in the US of A!

We do have a code that says we won't speak ill of other members in order to get work.  We make that choice voluntarily, so freedom of choice also is alive and well in the US of A......any gca who wants to reserve the right to trash talk others has the choice not to join.

I won't debate this again for the sanity of the board, but for me that was an easy choice to make, since trash talking the competition has NEVER, im my experience, helped me get a job, and I wouldn't do it anyway.

Ryan,

Like Forrest, I will bring up the idea of some kind of student program, but don't hold your breath.  I was on the web site redesign committee, for instance and while the new site is up as per our design, we are told it will be next year before some of the neat features we proposed are affordable.  Starting some new program - esp. scholarships or anything else requiring $$$$ - is probably not on the near term to do list.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 09:04:10 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2007, 10:30:46 AM »
QUOTE
Just in case the readers don't see the LOL part, I will add that there is nothing in the code saying you or anyone can't critisize ASGCA.  If there was, we couldn't enforce it!  Free speech lives in the US of A!

We do have a code that says we won't speak ill of other members in order to get work.  We make that choice voluntarily, so freedom of choice also is alive and well in the US of A......any gca who wants to reserve the right to trash talk others has the choice not to join.
END

Your code is so loosely worded its intent, perhaps not by design, is to make young architects with something to say and wanting to join your group act in a manner that can only be described as timid. In every industry the young up-and-comers take on the status quo by providing better service and screaming from the roof tops about it. They're aggressive, which keeps the fat establishment on their toes.

Agree or disagree?

If you agree, then you should move towards removing the free speech restricting rules...pronto. If not...

I suppose Tom Doak hasn't a prayer, as he's trashed a number of projects in his book, but then the hand is extended to him for membership. Some seem more equal than others, and that is the problem with your rules. They bend like cooked spaghetti. "Hey you wise-guy...shadapyouface...you ovah deh...I like you...we could do big things together...Capiche?"

I have had a past president of the ASGCA tell me flat out, "if you want to improve your chances of membership, tone it down." Forrest tells me to temper my comments!!! No ASGCA attitude about free speech here.

Hey ASGCA guys, how about letting everyone speak freely? Why not eliminate the rules restricting free speech so people won't think that doing so comes at a potential cost when applying for membership?

You call it "trash talk" which is a clever way of trying to dismiss some good arguments, but how about coming up with something that is not truthful? And as for trash talk, I have a old GC News discussion with ASGCA Directors bad mouthing young architects. You can add that to the list above.

This all started with a nice way of saying the ASGCA has little interest in expanding the pool. This has now morfed into an examination of ASGCA behavior and their influence. I'll restate the morphed case; I think the ASGCA has and continues to do a disservice with their rules. Rules that can and have been used as weapons. They are stealth like too, because there is no clear boundary, and that folks is Dangerous.

Why not change the rules and attitude? Like communism, it may take a couple decades to repair the rot, but why wait?

« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 11:05:08 AM by Tony Ristola »