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PThomas

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from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« on: June 20, 2007, 02:05:30 PM »
"I'm real concerned about golf because we're losing golfers every day...Golf has declined since 2000.  The PGA, the USGA - no one is doing a damned thing about it.  And I'll tell you what the (problem) is:  It's too expensive to play and the reason is that these courses they're building are too difficult and the maintenance is too high.  People can't play them, they're losing too many balls.  It takes too long to play. "

"We've got to get back to basics, back to A.W. Tillinghast, to Donald Ross-type courses...They're 7,000 yards long and tight, but without a lot of water or hazards, so people can get around."

Thoughts?  I think there's a lot of widsom here.
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2007, 02:26:16 PM »
I agree with Lee. I have to wonder if Lee came along in this day and age whether he would have done golf as he is definitely a rags to riches guy.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Glenn Spencer

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 02:36:57 PM »
I agree. I think there is plenty of wisdom in that statement. I would hate to be an architect or a developer though. It would be extremely difficult to try and build something challenging without throwing in all the extras though. I don't think many architects or developers want their course absolutely CHEWED up and I imagine today's equipment drives that fear into water hazards, forced carries and everything else. Holston Hills looks easy, feels easy, but it really isn't and a good round is well earned. I imagine that course was plenty hard though, years ago. It still is great though.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 02:39:52 PM »
I agree with Lee. I like challenging courses, but I don't want to lose balls. Not when Pro Vs are practically $3 a ball. I don't want to pay $85 or more to play some public course. I want to be able to walk and enjoy the company instead of riding in a cart and seeing everyone at the green. I want firm and fast and less maintenance of all types on the course. so what if there are few weeds or undesirable pieces of grass? So what if the greens aren't reported at 10 or higher on the stimpmeter? None of that has stopped my enjoyment of three week long trips to Scotland. In fact, it has enhanced it. If I could somehow transport a Scottish links course or my company to Scotland I would do it in a second.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 02:52:27 PM »
I agree. I think there is plenty of wisdom in that statement. I would hate to be an architect or a developer though. It would be extremely difficult to try and build something challenging without throwing in all the extras though. I don't think many architects or developers want their course absolutely CHEWED up and I imagine today's equipment drives that fear into water hazards, forced carries and everything else. Holston Hills looks easy, feels easy, but it really isn't and a good round is well earned. I imagine that course was plenty hard though, years ago. It still is great though.

What golf courses are being chewed up by the average golfer?  

Maybe too mant people are thinking about what's gonna happen when Tiger gets here, when Tiger probably will play about one course in 3,000.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 03:47:49 PM »
I think he has the problem right, just not the remedy. Golf has become too time consuming, however, a long & tight golf course exasperates the time it takes to play the round. Add all the bunkers and water hazards you want, because they ultimately do not slow play. Dense trees or bush, long grass and the overall length of the walk are what determine the pace of play at a golf course. Ross' intimate routings and 6,300-6,500 yard courses are good examples of design for quicker golf.

TK

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 04:29:46 PM »
I agree - the costs and prices have gone thru the roof.   In 1979, I paid $75 per golf season for unlimited golf at two (very nice for a muni) courses.  That's $75.00

And can you imagine the costs that clubs and owners must be taking on for maintenance?    Even cutting grass is a lot more expensive today due to the goofy cost of gasoline.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 04:42:59 PM »
...Add all the bunkers and water hazards you want, because they ultimately do not slow play....
??? ??? ???

Tyler,

Don't you rake bunkers?
Don't you search for your ball when it may be in a water hazard? And, retrieve it?

Not all golf courses have those ridiculous looking water hazards like ANGC where the grass is mown to the water's edge.

Not all golf courses don't have rakes in their bunkers like Pine Valley.

The biggest impediment to faster play is the stream in front of the green on the 17th at my course.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 05:09:02 PM »
Tyler,

Don't you rake bunkers?
Don't you search for your ball when it may be in a water hazard? And, retrieve it?

Not all golf courses have those ridiculous looking water hazards like ANGC where the grass is mown to the water's edge.

Not all golf courses don't have rakes in their bunkers like Pine Valley.

The biggest impediment to faster play is the stream in front of the green on the 17th at my course.

Garland,

Yes, I rake bunkers, generally when my partners are playing their shots so that I do not lag behind them on the subsequent walk.

I understand that the edge condition surrounding hazards can be scruffy, and that is not ideal for the situation you describe. However, I can usually see a splash when my ball enters a water hazard. If it is on the edge, I'll pick it out, if it is not, good riddance!! Drop a ball and move along.

To be honest, while design can play an integral part it creating the conditions for quick play, many golfers are usually not ready to hit their shots when it is their turn.

William Yates has done a lot of research into this topic, and he created the system of "time-par" for individual golf courses. His conclusions are similar to what I stated in my original post. Check out his essay in Forrest Richardson's "Routing the Golf Course". It surprised me too the first time I read it.

TK

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 05:14:35 PM »
I saw something really neat on a course I played in California called Lone Tree in Antioch.

They had a clock on every hole that was offset in such a way that every time you stepped up to the tee box, that if you were keeping pace, it would show the same time that you teed off from.  So if you tee'd off at 9 AM, then every clock on every hole would show 9 AM. If it said 9:05, or something like that, then you knew you were behind.

I thought that was a really neat way to provide gentle reminders to the golfers without course personnel having to nag them to keep up.


Garland,

I still think its all the hackers on the course that are slowing things up.   ;)  ;D

John Kavanaugh

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 05:20:55 PM »
Trevino is a bitter jerk who is now trying to blame other people once again for problems he sees in the game.  I have a couple of ideas...stick to courses you can afford and practice or take lessons so you lose fewer balls.  The game is fine, the people who play it need to be fixed.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 06:18:59 PM »
Trevino is a bitter jerk who is now trying to blame other people once again for problems he sees in the game.  I have a couple of ideas...stick to courses you can afford and practice or take lessons so you lose fewer balls.  The game is fine, the people who play it need to be fixed.
So John your remedy for the  problem Lee defines is to make everyone take lessons? At the  moment they have a choice about that and for the life of me I can't see your idea adding a single person to the number of keen golfers.

What have you got against someone who speaks his mind? Personnally I hope lots of people are listening.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 06:23:07 PM »
Trevino is a bitter jerk who is now trying to blame other people once again for problems he sees in the game.  I have a couple of ideas...stick to courses you can afford and practice or take lessons so you lose fewer balls.  The game is fine, the people who play it need to be fixed.

John plays golf. John needs to be fixed. Something really rude follows here, but I am now going to write it.

Calling Trevino a bitter jerk is quite an interesting ploy.

Say John, did you see I shot a smooth 104 last weekend.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 06:27:48 PM »
If you have lost one too many $50 box of balls I think a lesson may be in order.  This cost of golf argument is just a paper tiger created by people not happy with their lot in life.

What did Trevino say that came from his mind?  At least I offered a solution for a problem I do not believe exists.  Golf has never been easier to learn, as affordable, open to people of all races and religions, a road to unlimited riches for the best in the world, architecturally diverse and just plain more fun then it is today.  
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 06:30:35 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Doug Ralston

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 06:29:50 PM »
John;

Let me add buy $.50 used balls. I get 'em $5/dz and when they are lost, they are lost. I admit I find a lot of balls while searching for mine or partner's, but we always come in under 'timing par'.

Even though I am a poor golfer [both meanings  ;)], I have no interest in only playing 'easy' courses. I like to 'try' challenges, even if I cannot always achieve success. That's golf. Why would I play a bland course?

Lee may be right  about the courses being too hard for 'most', but I will play for the joy of it on courses that bring appreciation .......... period.

My grandest suggestion ........ forget the score and enjoy the course!

Doug

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 06:30:03 PM »
At least I offered a solution for a problem I do not believe exists.  

?
Let's make GCA grate again!

John Kavanaugh

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2007, 06:40:56 PM »
At least I offered a solution for a problem I do not believe exists.  

?

I'll lay it out for you.

Play where you can afford with affordable equipment.  If the people in front of you are slow tell them to speed up or slow down yourself.  Be a happy golfer and if you want to get better take some lessons from a PGA professional.  I don't think most of you guys realize this but lessons are fun as hell and they work.  The only reason I don't do it more often is because I just flat out have a great time golfing.  Be a happy golfer and golf will smile back at you.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2007, 08:25:09 PM »
Golfers are slow, not courses...almost always...long green-to-tee commutes notwithstanding.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2007, 09:03:02 PM »
Sully, You have to come out to California sometime so you can reevaluate your statement!  ;)

Please Sully,Come out to the OC so we can feast on some over-priced raw fish, unpronounceable and over-priced French food while sipping a fine Chianti.......siisssssiisssssiisssssssiissss (pronounced Key-yan-teee)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2007, 09:18:15 PM »
I'm not so sure that Trevino is either a jerk or bitter.  But I'm not sure he is entirely correct either.  I agree that many new courses are very expensive.  But there are some 16000 courses or so in the US.  There still are some inexpensive ones.  Nonetheless, golf is and always has been a relatively expensive game.  I would also like to see it grow.  I don't find as many young golfers at my club as I did when my son was growing up.  We don't even have a junior club championship anymore or have teens play other clubs.  I'm not sure how to grow the game but I share Trevino's concern.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2007, 09:32:49 PM »
A typical muni scenario.  

People being sent out on 7 minute intervals in golf carts who are healthy enough to walk (or need to walk).  They play cart golf, driving to one persons ball, then driving to the other persons ball.  Never getting more than 10 feet from the cart.  They never take more than one club with them when do leave the cart (repeat trip).  Instead of letting the players advance down the fairway AFTER hitting their shots, the refreshment cart girl is making the transaction at the same location the group JUST hit their shots from, while the group behind watches and waits.  The idea of letting a faster group (or two or three some) play through has become an insult to ones pride (even if they have an inkling of such etiquette) and simply doesn't happen unless the following group brings it up.

Couple all of this with Ranger/Marshalls that have become more concerned with where the carts are being driven (no carts off fairway) than why a particular group has TWO open holes ahead of them.  Even when you point this situation out to the Ranger, they are so fearful of the consequences of offending anyone, nothing is addressed.

The result.  A typical 3 hour nine.  I see this ALL THE TIME.  I guess I can continue to go out at 5:40 AM, navigate the sprinklers and play nine in 1:20 with a friend.  However, I believe that this situation is DISCOURAGING many from staying in the game.

RichMacafee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2007, 09:42:42 PM »
'Back to Basics' doesn't sell real estate!

Is there any movement in the USA to create cart-free courses, or lessen the cart culture? It really saddens me as a golfer to think 75% of golfers play all their rounds in a cart, apart from being a huge cause of slow play.
"The uglier a man's legs are, the better he plays golf. It's almost law" H.G.Wells.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2007, 09:44:49 PM »
I haven't taken time to research or analyse this, so I'm asking, not declaring anything.

Is the problem more that affordable golf isn't where the people are?  How many affordable courses are within travel distance for kids in metro areas?  How many "city" courses have no time for kids or beginners, are either old staid Country Clubs, or very expensive daily fee courses struggling to crack the nut of operations expenses?

JK, why is Trevino a Jerk for expressing suggestions to grow the game?  I'd say the man has the cred to offer suggestions from a vast history of experience in the game from the wrong side of the tracks to the elete private hustler games to the highest and widely travelled level as the pro we know.  It seems to me he could be in the Barney's Betterment for Golf Association, or whatever that kick was that you were on some time ago.  I doubt Trevino would ever downplay the importance of taking lessons.... affordable lessons for the beginers and adullesent youts.

PS: lessons 1-3 should be how to manage yourself on a course, courteously and efficiently!  Then show em how to hit it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 09:46:00 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2007, 11:12:06 PM »
Some questions.

1.  Please name a town in the country that does not provide affordable golf.  Affordable being cheaper than bowling for four hours.

2.  Please tell me what Trevino is recommending that we do to grow golf.  He could get behind affordable simple golf and get a course built in the rural areas of Texas in six months if he believed a word of what he is saying.  

3.  Please send me a self addressed box that will hold a set of clubs if you need a perfectly nice set that is good enough for a beginner to enjoy the game.  If you don't want to mess with me just tell me the name of the nicest private club in your area and I will arrange for one of their members to give you a set.  Happy golfers are generous people.

4.  Please explain why if you think play is too slow you do not either play first in the morning or late in the day.  Why do you deserve to tee off at prime time and play at your leisure if it makes others uncomfortable?  One way to get good tee times is to pay the pro for lessons or maybe buy something in his shop instead of at Dicks.

5.  Will one guy on this site with over 300 posts tell me that his situation as a golfer has not improved since joining this site.  Anyone who has met Tom Doak or Bill Coore excluded.

6.  Please tell me what part of this earlier statement by me is not 100% true;  Golf has never been easier to learn, as affordable, open to people of all races and religions, a road to unlimited riches for the best in the world, architecturally diverse and just plain more fun then it is today.

 

Troy Alderson

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2007, 11:38:20 PM »
I believe what Lee Trevino is getting at is the root cause of the high dollar, "expectations".  Golfers expect too much green for their green and challenge on the course when most do not realize they are shooting themselves in their own foot.  Too many bunkers, too many water hazards, and not enough short grass.

If superintendents were allowed to dry out the course and cut back on the fertilizer, a golf course would be more fun to play.  More roll on the drive, more strategy in the game.  Let the fairways and roughs go dormant and if necessary add only the amount of water needed for bents and fescues to survive (typically 1/2" to 3/4" of water per week and only during high temperatures above 80 degrees).

The golf ball flies too far, the clubs are too easy to hit with less chance of error, the soil is too wet and the turf is too green.  I say go back to persimmon woods and steel shafts and a roll back ball.  Like baseball has standardized the wooden bat and baseball construction, golf should standardize clubs and the golf ball.  The only adjustment is for size of the player, just like baseball.

Troy