News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« on: June 20, 2007, 05:36:52 AM »
The hype continues. Gary D'Amato writes again in today's Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel on the USGA's interest in a public midwest venue and a possible US Am in 2011. Some interesting quotes from Mike Davis:

Excitement hits Erin Hills over shot at Open in 2017
Posted: June 19, 2007
Golf Beat
Gary D'Amato

It's so early in the game, the outcome is impossible to predict with any measure of certainty. To put it in baseball terms, there's one out in the top of the first inning.

Given tantalizing bits of information and reading between the lines, however, it appears the United States Golf Association is strongly considering Erin Hills as a future site for the U.S. Open.

How strongly? Let's just say you might want to keep Father's Day in 2017 open on your calendar.

The course in the Town of Erin, just west of Holy Hill, hasn't even celebrated its one-year anniversary yet, but USGA officials already have made several reconnaissance missions. Mike Davis, senior director of rules and competitions, plans to stop in again after the U.S. Senior Open at Whistling Straits.

"I was there before it was even a golf course," Davis said last week at the U.S. Open. "I looked at it and said, 'You don't have to do much to make this a great, great golf course.' "

The USGA awarded the 2008 U.S. Women's Amateur Public Links to Erin Hills before the course opened. If all goes well that week, it probably wouldn't be long before Erin Hills was awarded the 2011 U.S. Amateur.

It's instructive to note the USGA has used the U.S. Amateur to gauge whether a course would be a suitable U.S. Open site.

Merion, for example, last played host to the Open in 1971 and then was declared too short for the championship. But the 2005 U.S. Amateur proved that the course, with modifications, still was capable of testing the best players in the world. Guess what? The Open is going to Merion in 2013.

Bob Lang, the owner of Erin Hills, understandably doesn't want to speculate about future USGA championships. Right now, he's more concerned about growing grass and finishing the clubhouse.

But Lang has cultivated relationships with top USGA officials, has sought their advice and has listened carefully to their recommendations. When he learned what was required for U.S. Open infrastructure, he bought more land surrounding Erin Hills and now owns 600 acres, more than enough for the Open's massive corporate village and television compound.

"Erin Hills is most fortunate to have been awarded the 2008 Women's Amateur Public Links," Lang said. "If we are never awarded another tournament, I am appreciative of this honor.

"However, I do know that Erin Hills is being considered by the USGA for a possible future U.S. Amateur. In addition, the USGA is taking the U.S. Amateur only to where they can also award the U.S. Open. I'm appreciative that Erin Hills is even being considered."

The 18-hole public course, designed by Mike Hurdzan, Dana Fry and Ron Whitten, can be stretched to more than 8,200 yards if necessary. Dirt was moved on only four holes during construction.

The green complexes are tremendous, with as much movement as the putting surfaces at Augusta National or Oakmont Country Club. The fearsome, shaggy-edged bunkers have "U.S. Open" written all over them.

There's a desolate, one-with-nature feel about the course, with no housing developments, roads or power lines in sight.

"It's a great layout," Davis said. "It's a great piece of property. It has all the land in the world to possibly do something."

The USGA wants to bring the U.S. Open to the Midwest. It would take the championship to golf-crazy Chicago in a heartbeat . . . if it could find a suitable course. Medinah is aligned with the PGA of America. Olympia Fields was a one-and-done in 2003. Cog Hill is being renovated, but USGA officials have been less than enthusiastic in their public comments.

Whistling Straits would be attractive because the course is tremendous and the Kohler Co. has a great track record in running championships. But the PGA is coming to the Straits in 2010 and 2015 and the Ryder Cup will visit in 2020, leaving no room for a U.S. Open.

"It's no secret we want to get back to the Midwest a little bit more," Davis said. "We need something west of Pittsburgh and east of California."

Therein lies Erin Hills.

"It's certainly got the land and it's built on a sandy, gritty soil, which is huge for us because when it rains, it drains," Davis said. "And it's close enough to a metropolitan area.

"But it really is so premature it would be unfair to comment other than to say they have the infrastructure there to do it."

The USGA announced last week that Pinehurst No. 2 was getting the 2014 U.S. Open, so the next available date for Erin Hills probably would be 2017. With the PGA at Whistling Straits in 2015, that year and the next would be off-limits for the Open because of concerns about corporate support.

A lot could happen between now and 2017. But it seems the USGA has a rooting interest in the course and that's half the battle. Time will tell about the other half.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jim Nugent

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2007, 06:16:03 AM »
Since the USGA wants a midwest location, how would Prairie Dunes work?  Course-wise, and logistically?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 08:00:43 AM »
I feel that the USGA also has another course that is more then worthy to take a look at for future opens.

It's in Tacoma, Washington and it's called Chambers Bay.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 08:06:50 AM »
At Erin Hills where is the second qualifying 18?  I could see Golfweek getting behind this if Lawsonia comes into play.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 08:34:27 AM »
If I read the phrase, "Dirt was moved on only four holes during construction" in connection with Erin Hills one more time, as if by definition this means we must pay attention, I may be nauseous.

Jim Colton

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 08:42:57 AM »

"I was there before it was even a golf course," Davis said last week at the U.S. Open. "I looked at it and said, 'You don't have to do much to make this a great, great golf course.' "


Maybe they took Davis a little too literally, which is why they only moved dirt on 4 holes.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 09:02:58 AM »
"The green complexes are tremendous, with as much movement as the putting surfaces at Augusta National or Oakmont Country Club."

Does anyone who has played Erin Hills agree with this?  The green complexes are varied and interesting, but Augusta and Oakmont?  You've got to be kidding.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 09:04:47 AM »
At Erin Hills where is the second qualifying 18?  I could see Golfweek getting behind this if Lawsonia comes into play.

John:

Although Lawsonia would be great, I think for logistics reasons they might opt for the Arthur Hills design that's nearby and run by Washington County. Relatively new, it opened about 10 years ago to pretty good reviews. It's the closest course to Erin Hills that could probably handle the demands of being a second course for the Amateur.

Maybe they could play the Langford/Moreau nine at West Bend twice!


John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 09:11:22 AM »
Based on the above I don't see Erin Hills getting an Amateur.  I hope they get a US Open sooner than later.  I'd like to see the Dell hole played on alternate days.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 09:30:50 AM »
The USGA is using Milwaukee CC (Colt and Alison) as the primary venue and Greater Milwaukee Open site Brown Deer for the Mid-Am. in 2008.  Both are within 30 minutes of Erin Hills.  What a contrast in styles either of those would be.
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 10:41:55 AM »
Since the USGA wants a midwest location, how would Prairie Dunes work?  Course-wise, and logistically?

Might be tough logistically. Wichita is almost an hour away where most of the people would have to stay.  The back nine can handle a good number of people but there isn't much room on the front.

Coursewise, I heard something kinda interesting when I was there last month.  There has been some talk (whatever that means) to change a couple of holes. For those who have been there:

Combine 3 and 4 into a long par 4, using the same 4 green location (dont know about bunkering).  Some clearing would have to take place, but it would turn the weakest hole on the course into a very good one.  Create a new 200+ yard downhill par three from #5's tee box down towards the open land right of 4 that everyone talks about putting a new nine in on.  5 would then be a Par five with a similar tee shot to the original #8 on Perry's nine hole course (now 17, which has a totally different teeing area).  7 would be converted into a 500 yard par 4 and voila, you have a 7000+ par 70 golf course.

I was told that when Press did the new nine, that he meant to rout it that way, but couldn't because the area where this new par 3 would be created was too wet at the time, and they couldn't do it.

I normally hit rescue on number three, but we hit drivers there one round to see what the shot would be like coming into 4 green from there.  It is spectacular, from 170-200 coming in down wind uphill.  

Bill Coore would obviously be the consultant on it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 11:01:31 AM by Sean Leary »

Peter_Herreid

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 10:55:24 AM »
Interesting, Sean!

Perry's original #8 (now #17) was much more of a dogleg right, correct--wasn't tee original tee over behind the 10th green, near the 11th tee area.  Stan George waved his hand out over an area he was "clearing out" of gunsch in that vicinity, indicating where the original tee was...

I presume you mean that the newly created par 3 would start from the 5th tee box, and not the 4th, and that is an intriguing idea.  I want to make this clear it is not a criticism of PD, but rather just an observation, that all 4 par 3's (to some extent) played, to some degree, uphill and #4 and #15 (and to a lesser extent #2) played in the same direction.

Where I am visualized the new #4 would be would add a varied playing direction than the others for sure...

Can you imagine trying to gauge the angle of carry to the new 5th fairway from somewhere down in that hollow uphill through the wind--Yikes!

Interesting thoughts--are Coore and Crenshaw still on retainer out there?


Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 11:00:26 AM »
Peter,

I was editing those questions on my initial post as you posted.  Yes Bill Coore would be in charge on the changes.

The other thing that it would do is create a downhill approach shot with the new par 3. There isn't 1 downhill approach on the course, never mind just par 3's..

Peter_Herreid

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 11:26:33 AM »
Now that you bring that up, Sean, I realize you are right, as always ;)

There are a number of approaches that I had incorrectly felt were downhill, but there were probably just downwind and played to trundle the ball in, moreso than actually being downhill.  I think the fact that many tees are elevated gives a false sense of downhill approaches also...

I wouldn't have thought there was enough room in between the right side of #5 and the houses west of the property to get another whole 9 in, but perhaps there is.  My eyeballs and memory make me think that those holes would have to be pretty tightly packed in, which (IMHO) would be a contrast to the nature of the remaining 18.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, just different....


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 01:09:45 PM »
Does anyone see this as being a little bit rediculous?
Quote
Excitement hits Erin Hills over shot at Open in 2017
Posted: June 19, 2007

I don't blame Gary D'Amato for flogging the hype over Erin Hills since Lang started mowing the future hole corridors.  It is a very exciting source of local pride, for sure.  But, the two widely seperated dates between byline to expected reward seem silly to me.

Does anyone think that maybe the USGA and PGA should quit announcing specific sites so far in advance?  

I understand the need for a few years lead time to ready the venue and logistics.  But, 10+ years!?  :o   In a way, doesn't that have a chilling effect on the overall field of GCA from a standpoint of an architect being presented with a prime property in the present, and knowing nothing in his own lifetime might be available to showcase his talent and perhaps masterpiece of work on that rare premier property?  That seems like a tamping down of aspiration...

As Tommy points out, Chambers Bay is a great and serious candidate in an interesting metro location as well.  And, there are a whole host of courses coming on line right now, that still would have plenty of maturity by 2017!

I'd personally like to see the USGA and PGA announce a set of "possible" candidates for something that far out.  And, considering that far out, leave room for one not even built yet (but could still make it under the wire if built within 5 years of the upcoming specific event).  Then at about 3 years narrow the candidates to 2 possibles, and at 2 years make the final announcement of the selected host venue.  Wouldn't that serve to act as both a safety valve that a PGA, Vallhalla quality course could still loose out to an Erin Hills, Chambers Bay, etc., if one far more widely understood in terms of greatness arises?  

Likewise, the USGA has several tournaments to move around, with mid-ams, pub-links, womens, mens ams and pros, etc.  Why not keep more courses in the mix for consideration, and keep everyone on their toes an keep enthusiasm and anticipation more real.  

BTW, if Chambers Bay or Erin Hills gets something, we cheeseheads get to swell up with homer pride as one is in Wisconsin, and one has an influential design associate as a major player in it's result.  We are happy either way!  ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 01:13:29 PM »
That potential thing didn't work out very well for Riviera.  The only people who win at that game are the architects and contractors.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2007, 01:27:03 PM »
JK, I assume you are referring to the early competition between Torrey Pines next year and Riv, which if I'm not mistaken was awarded to TP by about 2000 oe 01.  

How many courses far better than TP have come on line between 01 and say 05?  With still 3 years lead time, could we have seen a better selection diverted from TP within 01 to 05 and still be fair to the final selection for enough lead time to put on the show?  

If you are going to say, poor old San Diego would have been stuck for so much $$$ regarding the Rees J remodelling.  I think not.  I think that the grant they got from the USGA for upgrade, could still have been awarded, along with as much to a couple other courses, because a couple mil for a couple courses is within the USGA budget, I think... So, SD would have not gotten screwed, because they still would have gotten the upgrade, which works nice for their yearly Buick event anyway.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2007, 02:55:42 PM »
I think CB as an Open site is a little aggressive.  Lets give it some time ..

Jim Colton

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2007, 04:20:55 PM »
Does anyone see this as being a little bit rediculous?
Quote
Excitement hits Erin Hills over shot at Open in 2017
Posted: June 19, 2007

I don't blame Gary D'Amato for flogging the hype over Erin Hills since Lang started mowing the future hole corridors.  It is a very exciting source of local pride, for sure.  But, the two widely seperated dates between byline to expected reward seem silly to me.

Does anyone think that maybe the USGA and PGA should quit announcing specific sites so far in advance?  


The most ridiculous example is the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straits in 2020.  They announced that thing almost five years ago.  Is it really necessary to announce these things almost 20 years in advance?  I'm excited about the prospect of the Ryder Cup on a course that I've played and is relatively close to my home in Chicago, but how can one begin to prepare for an event that's so far away.  Certainly there a pretty big chunk of the population that won't even be around to see September 2020 (hopefully myself not included).

The lead time for the Olympics is long as well, but they've just started the campaigning for 2016, for an event the requires billions of dollars of investment and infrastructure to prepare for.  A golf tournament is child's play by comparison.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2007, 04:39:31 PM »
Jim:

My understanding is that it was part of the package deal between Herb Kohler and the PGA. The PGA has been quite happy with the logistics, organizational detail, and course related to events it has hosted at WStraits -- not just the PGA, but also the professional championship for teaching pros several years ago. Kohler really wanted a US Open, and was willing to forego another PGA to get one. But then the PGA came calling because of the Sahallee deal (PGA pulled its 2010 PGA out of there because of competition for corporate dollars with nearby Vancouver Olympics), and my understanding is that Kohler and the PGA worked out the deal that would give him two PGAs (2010 -- the thanks-for-taking-this one -- and the 2015 one, probably within the rotation of when WStraits would've gotten one after its debut in 2004.) My sense is that the Ryder Cup was the incentive for both sides to close the deal -- Herb to give up on hosting a US Open, and the PGA for getting him to take the Sahallee PGA.




PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2007, 04:48:17 PM »
and the earlier they pick the site for the 2017 Open, the earlier they can start selling merchandise from the event! ::) ;)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jim Colton

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2007, 04:53:52 PM »
Jim:

My understanding is that it was part of the package deal between Herb Kohler and the PGA. The PGA has been quite happy with the logistics, organizational detail, and course related to events it has hosted at WStraits -- not just the PGA, but also the professional championship for teaching pros several years ago. Kohler really wanted a US Open, and was willing to forego another PGA to get one. But then the PGA came calling because of the Sahallee deal (PGA pulled its 2010 PGA out of there because of competition for corporate dollars with nearby Vancouver Olympics), and my understanding is that Kohler and the PGA worked out the deal that would give him two PGAs (2010 -- the thanks-for-taking-this one -- and the 2015 one, probably within the rotation of when WStraits would've gotten one after its debut in 2004.) My sense is that the Ryder Cup was the incentive for both sides to close the deal -- Herb to give up on hosting a US Open, and the PGA for getting him to take the Sahallee PGA.





I agree it was competition between the PGA of America and the USGA and a power play by Herb that has fueled this fire.  Hopefully Herb is still around to see the Ryder Cup at his site.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2007, 05:30:58 PM »
Isn't it the 8 thousand + yards that makes Erin Hills attractive to the usga?

If so I think we have our answer on whether or not they will be sticking, significantly, with their '02 statement.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:33:55 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jason Blasberg

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2007, 05:41:00 PM »
Isn't it the 8 thousand + yards that makes Erin Hills attractive to the usga?

If so I think we have our answer on whether or not they will be sticking, significantly, with their '02 statement.

Adam, have you been to Erin Hills?  It's marvelous golfing land and has tons of room to accomodate all the trappings of a major championship (tents, gallery, etc.)

I wonder if the routing was done with that it mind?  If so, perhaps that is the greatest criticism one could levy against EH.  That's pure conjecture on my part and I'm not sure the routing is flawed at all (I need at least another round or two to make that decision).  Certainly the placement of the clubhouse in relation to both the 18 and bye hole greens is very odd and seemingly unnecessary.  

Perhaps that massive space is planned for something down the road?

Jason Blasberg

Re:Erin Hills- US Open- 2017?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2007, 05:46:31 PM »
Peter,

 There isn't 1 downhill approach on the course, never mind just par 3's..

Legitimate criticism but 7 is a bit down hill.  12 and 14 both play as if they are downhill.  12 does because the green runs front to back and 14 actually is down hill if you lay back far enough.