[cary lichtenstein]

For those of you who will be in the Denver area Aug 16th, the public is invited to play in a charity event put on by The Steadman-Hawkins Research Foundation. I do not know the cost.

Sanctuary is a top 100 golf course designed by Jim Engh. It is a true mountain course and you will see and experience stuff that you have never had before, in a positive way, IMHO.

For information, please conact Rachele Palmer at the Steadman-Hawkins Research Foundation 970-479-5809/

For those of you who are not familiar with the Steadman-Hawkins Research Foundation, it is one of the largest, independent orthopaedic research foundation in the world.

Dr. Steadman did my wife's knee surgery and countless professional sports people as well as ordinary folks like you and us.

They are currently working on stem cell research for repairing defects in bones so people do not have to have joint replacement.

[Steve Lapper]

The Jones-Nicklaus-Woods of knees, Dick Steadman is the best sports knee surgeon ever! Only reason I can walk 36 and still wake up and do it again.

[Bill_McBride]

We should do a match play, Dr Steadman vs. Dr. James Andrews of Birmingham AL and now Pensacola, Florida.  He is another sports surgery guy with tremendous results.

I'm about ready to go see Andrews about my right hip flexor and glute that won't ever loosen up and stop hurting.  

[Joel_Stewart]

I would play the course for the charity rather than the golf course.  Sanctuary is a perfect example of exclusive golf (there are 2 members) with over the top water features and conditioning which wows some panelists.  Furthermore the staff treats everyone like they are royality which also tends to sway votes.  Lastly, everything is free which panelists love.

The bunkering may be the worst in the country with geometric forms that are completely unnatural.  The course is completely unwalkable, it sits on the side of a mountain which in itself should disqualify it as a top 100 course.

Its the epitome of modern golf and everything that is wrong with modern architecture.

[Steve Lapper]

We should do a match play, Dr Steadman vs. Dr. James Andrews of Birmingham AL and now Pensacola, Florida.  He is another sports surgery guy with tremendous results.

I'm about ready to go see Andrews about my right hip flexor and glute that won't ever loosen up and stop hurting.  

Andrews is indeed a highly respected surgeon. He works on all the joints (and mostly famous for his pitching elbow successes). Steady is a pure knees guy and has returned so very many professional, amateur, and weekend-warrior jocks to their respective sports and levels of participation.

[Mike Sweeney]

Its the epitome of modern golf and everything that is wrong with modern architecture.

and Joel you are the epitome of why this board and raters get a bad name.

Cary post a charity outing that is close to his family, because the guy helped out his wife, and you throw up the above.

"In 2004, 22 charities hosted events at Sanctuary. Cumulatively they raised more than $4.4 million at Sanctuary bringing the eight year total to more than $23 million raised through hosted events and donated foursomes at Sanctuary.........Each year, up to 100 nonprofit organizations apply for the 20 to 25 tournament spots available. As part of its commitment to Premier Community Citizenship, RE/MAX International is the presenting sponsor of the tournaments."

It is exclusive to 2 members because this is how the guy has chosen to give back to society. We NEED MORE places and people like this guy and if we all here at GCA have to take a cart for the day to play with the unwashed masses that don't "get it", that is okay with me.

Joel, Please list the ways that you have given back to society in the last 8 years. By the way, you and I both know a Golf Digest rater who has played over 2000 courses who has Sanctuary on his Top 5 with Cypress Point.

[John Kavanaugh]

They are currently working on stem cell research for repairing defects in bones so people do not have to have joint replacement.

Can you imagine the knee you could get from a Tiger zygote?  Oops, he has a lousy knee...I'll take one hip please and maybe some abs.

[Geoffrey Childs]

They are currently working on stem cell research for repairing defects in bones so people do not have to have joint replacement.

Can you imagine the knee you could get from a Tiger zygote?  Oops, he has a lousy knee...I'll take one hip please and maybe some abs.

Michael Sweeney - nicely stated. Charity remains an individual endeavour but good causes deserve support at best and respect in the least.

John- A tigress body part is only good for her or possibly immediate family.  You or most everyone else would reject it in a flash unless you took strong and potentially dangerous drugs to suppress your immune system (sometimes necessary but never ideal).  The ultimate goal is to be able to regrow your own body parts and thus do away with rejection problems or artificial parts.  It WILL happen even if our shortsighted idiotic politicians prevent federal funds for research.

[Joel_Stewart]

Mike: Wow.  I have no problem with the guy from Remax and his charity work.  As I said from my post, you should play the course for the charity and not because of the golf course.

This web site is for golf architecture and I am giving my thoughts on Sanctuary.

Lastly, if you are talking about a golf digest rater with the initials TI, you don't know this guy very well and don't understand what he likes.  He has never posted on this site and playing 2000 courses doesn't mean jack shit if the quality of his reviews is terrible.  The guy travels around looking for quantity and not quality.  Lastly, he is one of Jim Enghs best freinds, plays with him at the Sanctuary member guest and is a general poster child for Santuary since they treat him him like a king.  Get your frigin facts correct and tell the entire story not bit and pieces.

[Dale_McCallon]

Its the epitome of modern golf and everything that is wrong with modern architecture.

and Joel you are the epitome of why this board and raters get a bad name.

Cary post a charity outing that is close to his family, because the guy helped out his wife, and you throw up the above.

"In 2004, 22 charities hosted events at Sanctuary. Cumulatively they raised more than $4.4 million at Sanctuary bringing the eight year total to more than $23 million raised through hosted events and donated foursomes at Sanctuary.........Each year, up to 100 nonprofit organizations apply for the 20 to 25 tournament spots available. As part of its commitment to Premier Community Citizenship, RE/MAX International is the presenting sponsor of the tournaments."

It is exclusive to 2 members because this is how the guy has chosen to give back to society. We NEED MORE places and people like this guy and if we all here at GCA have to take a cart for the day to play with the unwashed masses that don't "get it", that is okay with me.

Joel, Please list the ways that you have given back to society in the last 8 years. By the way, you and I both know a Golf Digest rater who has played over 2000 courses who has Sanctuary on his Top 5 with Cypress Point.

So as long as a course does charity work,is it immune to criticism?

It is great that the owners of the place have been able to raise so much money with their course.  Then again, couldn't they just make the place a public course, charge whatever the market allowed and give that all to charity too.

[John Kavanaugh]

They are currently working on stem cell research for repairing defects in bones so people do not have to have joint replacement.

Can you imagine the knee you could get from a Tiger zygote?  Oops, he has a lousy knee...I'll take one hip please and maybe some abs.

Michael Sweeney - nicely stated. Charity remains an individual endeavour but good causes deserve support at best and respect in the least.

John- A tigress body part is only good for her or possibly immediate family.  You or most everyone else would reject it in a flash unless you took strong and potentially dangerous drugs to suppress your immune system (sometimes necessary but never ideal).  The ultimate goal is to be able to regrow your own body parts and thus do away with rejection problems or artificial parts.  It WILL happen even if our shortsighted idiotic politicians prevent federal funds for research.

Geoffrey,

Isn't the ultimate goal to build better body parts?

[Geoffrey Childs]

They are currently working on stem cell research for repairing defects in bones so people do not have to have joint replacement.

Can you imagine the knee you could get from a Tiger zygote?  Oops, he has a lousy knee...I'll take one hip please and maybe some abs.

Michael Sweeney - nicely stated. Charity remains an individual endeavour but good causes deserve support at best and respect in the least.

John- A tigress body part is only good for her or possibly immediate family.  You or most everyone else would reject it in a flash unless you took strong and potentially dangerous drugs to suppress your immune system (sometimes necessary but never ideal).  The ultimate goal is to be able to regrow your own body parts and thus do away with rejection problems or artificial parts.  It WILL happen even if our shortsighted idiotic politicians prevent federal funds for research.

Geoffrey,

Isn't the ultimate goal to build better body parts?

No John - of course not

The goal is to cure suffering, disease and to extend a good quality of life as long as possible.

[John Kavanaugh]

They are currently working on stem cell research for repairing defects in bones so people do not have to have joint replacement.

Can you imagine the knee you could get from a Tiger zygote?  Oops, he has a lousy knee...I'll take one hip please and maybe some abs.

Michael Sweeney - nicely stated. Charity remains an individual endeavour but good causes deserve support at best and respect in the least.

John- A tigress body part is only good for her or possibly immediate family.  You or most everyone else would reject it in a flash unless you took strong and potentially dangerous drugs to suppress your immune system (sometimes necessary but never ideal).  The ultimate goal is to be able to regrow your own body parts and thus do away with rejection problems or artificial parts.  It WILL happen even if our shortsighted idiotic politicians prevent federal funds for research.

Geoffrey,

Isn't the ultimate goal to build better body parts?

No John - of course not

The goal is to cure suffering, disease and to extend a good quality of life as long as possible.

That is exactly why you are having funding problems.  I think that is a noble goal but hardly an ultimate one.

[Geoffrey Childs]

John - noble goal but hardly the ultimate one? Did you fall on your head this morning?

I do not currently work on stem cells. I am working on cancer.

Let's be clear - (lack of) federal funding of stem cell research is a temporary situation caused by the misguided views of the worst president in our history and whose time is almost up in Washington. Funding will happen here but even so there are BILLIONS of $$$$ of private money funding foundations here and more BILLIONS overseas.

I just happened to ride the elevator up to my lab this morning with a colleague and collaborator who I do charity work with on Cooleys Anemia.  This fellow has patients in France who no longer need monthly transfusion or nightly injections of iron removing chelators because he took their bone marrow stem cells and inserted a good and functional copy of the beta-globin gene into them and reintroduced the stem cells into their body.  This will very soon cure hundreds of thousands of otherwise doomed kids of an previously incurable disease.  This same treatment will also work on the millions with sickle cell anemia.


This is but one of thousands of genetic conditions, some deadly and others debilitating that are targets of stem cell research.  Please tell me what in your mind is the ultimate goal?

[Garland Bayley]

Joel,

Thank you for your review of Sanctuary.

[John Kavanaugh]

While I appreciate the work done to help sick people and think that should be the goal of those fortunate enough to be born both hard working and brilliant my personal ultimate goal is to be thin and have a big pecker.  That is where the money is....I just don't see genetic science stopping at noble causes unless you can cure vanity.

[Michael Christensen]

Mr Childs,

Why should the government fund stem cell research?  Why should American tax payers pay for one more damn thing?

If there are billions and billions of private funding, as you state, isn't that enough??  These scientists who whine that American taxpayers won't pay for every damn thing they want makes me sick!  

[Geoffrey Childs]

While I appreciate the work done to help sick people and think that should be the goal of those fortunate enough to be born both hard working and brilliant my personal ultimate goal is to be thin and have a big pecker.  That is where the money is....I just don't see genetic science stopping at noble causes unless you can cure vanity.

John

I knew I had missed something.  You'll just have to keep answering all those unsolicited spam emails for your pecker. As for being thin, the genetics of obesity is a huge and important health topic and one where a great deal of work is being focused.  My friend at Rockefeller U, Jeff Friedman might be of help to you. Using our Federal research dollars as well as private HHMR foundation $$, he discovered leptin, a hormone that controls apetite.  It's unfortunately not going to be a blockbuster drug but there is help ahead.  Stay healthy long enough and you could get your magic thin pill.  Your pecker is out of my control  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Mr Childs,

Why should the government fund stem cell research?  Why should American tax payers pay for one more damn thing?

If there are billions and billions of private funding, as you state, isn't that enough??  These scientists who whine that American taxpayers won't pay for every damn thing they want makes me sick!  

Michael - WOW

After that answer it's Dr Childs to you!

I would not really wish for your last statement "they want makes me sick!" because if you had your way getting sick even for little infectious diseases that today are easily cured would kill you in a heartbeat.  If you do not think that an investment of public funds to extend life, extend quality of life and to keep people well is worthy well then I don't know what to say and I have no idea what you would have us do with our money.  You can't take it with you after you're dead and you'll be dead a lot sooner if there were no medical research.

[Garland Bayley]

Mr Childs,

Why should the government fund stem cell research?  Why should American tax payers pay for one more damn thing?

If there are billions and billions of private funding, as you state, isn't that enough??  These scientists who whine that American taxpayers won't pay for every damn thing they want makes me sick!  

Michael,

After that post please reply to me as Dr. Bayley.

Take a look at the corporate welfare the government gives to rich corporations such as the oil companies and tell me you aren't severely sick.

I have an idea. Take away the tax breaks for oil companies and let that money fund stem cell and other medical research. We would all be better off after that.

[Michael Christensen]

Dr(s) plural:

I did not say anything about corporate welfare.  I am against that too....I just have a big problem with American tax payers having to pick up the tab for everything!  I say use private funds for stem cell research....isn't that enough...the "billions and billions" that were stated by the good doctor???

I just get really peeved that the US Treasury is expected to pay for every single thing (tax breaks for oil companies, welfare for illegal aliens, stem cell research, abortions for overseas nationals, AIDS research, etc, etc, etc, etc).  It is ALL ONE BIG BOONDOGLE. Enough is enough.

Getting back to the charity event at Sanctuary...it is a great cause and I back it completely because it is PRIVATE funded event.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Dr(s) plural:

I did not say anything about corporate welfare.  I am against that too....I just have a big problem with American tax payers having to pick up the tab for everything!  I say use private funds for stem cell research....isn't that enough...the "billions and billions" that were stated by the good doctor???

I just get really peeved that the US Treasury is expected to pay for every single thing (tax breaks for oil companies, welfare for illegal aliens, stem cell research, abortions for overseas nationals, AIDS research, etc, etc, etc, etc).  It is ALL ONE BIG BOONDOGLE. Enough is enough.

Getting back to the charity event at Sanctuary...it is a great cause and I back it completely because it is PRIVATE funded event.

Michael - I hope you and your family enjoy a long and healthy life.

Private money is but a drop in the bucket compared to National Institutes of Health, National Science Foundation and a few other federal support institutes including ironically defense department.

Much of the stem cell money I quoted is actually STATE funded initiatives voted on in California (3 billion) and a few other states. Private money is far less and then of course when it is funded by a biotech or large drug company we will be crying about the inordinate costs of the resulting drugs and profits.

If the constitution says that goverment is to promote the common good and welfare of the people then I ask what you would have us spend our money on?  Should there be a federal tax at all?  Where would the workers come from if they died at age 40 as was the common lifespan in Old Tom Morris' day in Scotland and they lived much of that time in sickness and ill health?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Michael,

I certainly respect your consistency of principle, and I agree with some of your points, specifically the distorting effect of government "aid" in many areas of the economy.

The invisible hand is alive and well.  But when it comes to medical and scientific research, the invisible hand doesn't work very well.  For example, drug companies invest in research that produces a reasonably predictable, (increasingly short-term) benefit.

Consider the role of government funding in:
1. Prosthetics research and bionics.  This aids our disabled veterans, for starters.
2. Shock trauma.  Without significant government involvement and research, this field's advances would have been severely retarded.  R Adams Cowley in fact used the government very effectively to overcome resistance to his ideas in the medical community.  So many lives that would have been snuffed out in ill-equipped, under-staffed hospitals on Friday and Saturday nights continue because of government support for people like Dr. Cowley.
3. Congress declared the 1990s the "decade of the brain."  Sounds like another idiotic "national beekeeper day" pronunciation, but this one actually directed federal attention and resources to the study of the brain.  As a result of this declaration, many things we thought to be true about the brain have turned out completely false.  The discoveries that are pouring forth today are astonishing and promise meaningful hope for those with neurological disorders and even formerly "hopeless" and devastating diseases like schizophrenia.
4. NIH grants have produced enormous breakthroughs in the treatment of even terminal diseases.  For example, in the 1980s the average life expectancy of Cystic Fibrosis patients -- children -- was something like 16 years.  Today, it's the mid-30s and some live into their 40s.

None of this would have been possible without government leadership and funding.

Just the neurological advances are astonishing.  The work of the brilliant scientist V.S. Ramachandran  (University of California, San Diego) was the subject of his Reith Lectures in 2003: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/lecturer.shtml

Fascinating stuff...

Cheers,
Mark

[DTaylor18]

Mr Childs,

Why should the government fund stem cell research?  Why should American tax payers pay for one more damn thing?

If there are billions and billions of private funding, as you state, isn't that enough??  These scientists who whine that American taxpayers won't pay for every damn thing they want makes me sick!  

Michael, without arguing on whether I agree with your point or not, much of things in life are delivery.  I think your response was over the line to Geoffrey, who clearly wants to be more a part of the solution than the problem.

[Kalen Braley]

Mr Childs,

Why should the government fund stem cell research?  Why should American tax payers pay for one more damn thing?

If there are billions and billions of private funding, as you state, isn't that enough??  These scientists who whine that American taxpayers won't pay for every damn thing they want makes me sick!  

Michael, without arguing on whether I agree with your point or not, much of things in life are delivery.  I think your response was over the line to Geoffrey, who clearly wants to be more a part of the solution than the problem.

I think the bigger issue is this.

I'm all for using public monies to find cures and research and stuff.  But it really chaps my hide when I have to turn around and pay through the nose to be the beneficiary of all of these new cures and drugs.

The pharamcuetical industry is the worst of the worst when it comes to this.  Use public money to fund thier R and D, and then turn around and charge me $60 for a couple of pills, claiming that the R & D expenses were very high of which most of those costs came out of my and the publics' pockets.  What a crock of you-know-what.  This really gets my blood boiling.

And then to boot we pour massive amounts of money into our system so that elderly people can stay alive longer than God intended.  We're so focused on the quantity of life that we never stop to ask about the quality of life.  And the Terry Schiavo debacle brought all this to the national forefront.

I think where people take exception is paying for all of the cures and research, and then getting in effect doubly taxed to take advantage of it.

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