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Chris Cupit

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« on: June 19, 2007, 07:26:05 PM »
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 08:36:35 PM by Chris Cupit »
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RSLivingston_III

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Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 07:37:53 PM »
Have you considered the course based on the equipment of the day?
It's kind of like damning Henry Ford for not having thought of airbags for the model T.
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
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Mike Sweeney

Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 05:23:05 AM »
Walter Travis was doing the same thing:

http://www.capearundel.com/flyover.asp
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Eric Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 05:49:15 AM »
Courses routed like this didn't do 200 rounds a day when they were designed...the chances of shelling someone were substantially less.
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It is what it is.

wsmorrison

Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 05:56:56 AM »
Ralph,

I don't have a problem with individual exceptions to space constraints.  After all, golf was spreading at a terrific rate and some areas simply wanted a golf course no matter the constraints.  However, I trust you are not saying that in general it is acceptable for a golf architect not to anticipate the impact of factors that effect the golf course?  Certainly golf courses that acquired reserved land and those that were designed with elasticity benefited the clubs.  The foresight of golf club officers to anticipate expansion and lengthening was rare (except for those with real estate components) and would have benefited from an architect that could recommend buying options or adjacent land for future golf expansion and to take advantage of increased real estate prices with adjacent golf.

Linville GC was opened in 1924. That is a lot later than Cape Arundel.  I don't know what the space limitations at this particular course were at the time, but that should have been late enough in Ross's career to have anticipated the changes that might affect the golf course over time.  The membership, with guidance from the architect should have at least been aware of the consequences of their decisions at that time.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:58:06 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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Chris Cupit

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Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 10:03:05 AM »
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 08:35:03 PM by Chris Cupit »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 10:52:32 AM »
Chris,

No, unless you felt he should have predicted the future.  The scale of nearly everything - houses, roads, golf courses - has kept increasing for various reasons.  In golf, as noted, more play has increased awareness of safety needs.

I don't know the routing at Linville, but in 1900 or so, golf courses on 100 acres were common.  That went to about 160 by mid century and to about 200 now, because of added length, added hole spacing width, and of course, environment constraints.  We have also learned about some general hole relationships (like tees on insides of doglegs) that add to the land requirements and have become problems on busier courses.

Oh, lets not forget the role lawyers play in all this! ;)
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 10:54:58 AM »
Wayne Wayne Wayne Wayne Wayne.  How many times I have told you that you cannot elevate Flynn by denigrating Ross?

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 11:32:01 AM »
Mike, you wrote:

"Wayne Wayne Wayne Wayne Wayne.  How many times I have told you that you cannot elevate Flynn by denigrating Ross?"

You could have left it like this:
 
"Wayne Wayne Wayne Wayne Wayne.  How many times I have told you that you cannot elevate Flynn by denigrating _______?"

 ::)
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

wsmorrison

Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 03:40:48 PM »
Mike and Jim,

If you're trying to be funny, so be it.  If you are at least semi-serious, please tell me where in this discussion I mentioned any architect by name other than Ross.  I am not denigrating Ross either since I don't know much about the specifics of Linville.  I merely spoke about generalities.  In some cases, Ross performed at a very high level, in other cases he was mediocre.  Do you dispute that?  Is that building Flynn up at Ross's expense?  If you think so, you are not considering the subject matter very well.  I can be critical of other architects without having an ulterior motive to "elevate Flynn" as you call it.  You assume bias too easily.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 03:43:16 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 03:58:15 PM »
Wayne.  Just joshing.  My 2008 goal is a pilgramage to your neck of the woods for a Flynn-fest.  

Cheers,

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

wsmorrison

Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 04:05:10 PM »
Michael,

You won't be disappointed.  I hope I'm around when you visit Philadelphia for the Flynn-fest.  I'll be at Lancaster CC this Saturday.  I'll post photos of the recently restored (Nagle and Forse) Phabulous Philadelphia Phlynn.
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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 07:23:10 PM »
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 08:35:31 PM by Chris Cupit »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 07:36:56 PM »
Chris,

Well, at least it was an easy walk from green to tee. Nowadays, I wonder if any golfer could even get over that 4" lip without a cart!

As you say, even given that spacings have increased, that sounds tight.  However, if Ross was faced with a tight area, it seems he was more willing to just push things closer together and hope for the best than a modern gca might be.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 07:42:45 PM »
Chris,

The fame of Ross's routing on Linville is supposed to be that he managed to work the stream into 12 holes.

Are you saying he compromised the playing corridors for this or is it an unintended victim of technology?

Not accusing, just wondering.

Mark
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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 07:44:36 PM »
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 08:35:48 PM by Chris Cupit »
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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was this Donald Ross' fault?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2013, 08:34:37 PM »
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: .
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2013, 08:52:39 PM »
.--  -  ..-.

 ;D
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