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John Kavanaugh

When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« on: June 19, 2007, 04:59:17 PM »
Ross, Stiles, Fazio, Jones and others are clearly great in polite conversation.  When do you know that you can use that label with other working or dead architects.  What label do you use when your audience may be on the fence and you don't want them to lose focus over semantics?  

Garland Bayley

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 05:01:07 PM »
Are you talking great in polite conversation, or are you talking great in confidential guide style conversation?
 :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 05:11:31 PM »
Are you talking great in polite conversation, or are you talking great in confidential guide style conversation?
 :)

I see all conversation as the same in that it is polite to be honest.  In the case of architects like RTJ Jr. and Doak I'm not sure if they are great or just well respected...Even as offensive as that may sound, well respected is much better than busy.

For you guys who learned to write in school...Is there a name for words like these?

Matt MacIver

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2007, 05:12:45 PM »
GCA Greatness, as defined by the following formula:

# Courses listed on Top 100 Golf Digest (divided by .75)
# Courses listed on Top 100 Golf

times

# of Years each course is listed on said publication

Result.  Somewhere between 50 and 60 is probably the right number.  Could probably add residential sales figures and number of PGA tour events and Majors in there, too.  

Throw all that out if the arch has done more than 50 courses world-wide.  Prolific may then be used as a synonym for great.  

John Kavanaugh

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2007, 05:16:51 PM »
Thanks...Prolific is better than busy.

David Stamm

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2007, 08:00:59 PM »
I think an architect is considered great when a golfer can fall asleep at night and remember every hole in his mind and reflect with tremendous fondness the experience he or she had when playing there, and by experience I'm NOT talking how well they played. And this is also not because of some historical event (major) or significance of the course in golf's history (home course of a golf legend, etc.).


Most of Mackenzie's courses have never hosted a major, except of course AGNC. When an architect's work can garner such acclaim on a consistent basis, then surely he must be great. Mackenzie's CPC, Crystal Downs, RM, Valley Club and Pasatiempo have always flown under the radar with the casual golfer yet when one plays one of these without knowing anything at all about the architect, I have yet to meet someone who after playing one of these,  did not feel they had experienced a truly great course. They don't know who Mackenzie is, but they know what they have played was special.


If you took someone who didn't know Tillinghast and had them play his lesser known courses, I think most would be smitten by them. Sure, they have heard of Winged Foot and recently Bethpage, but I feel if they were to play SFGC, Somerset Hills, Baltimore CC, Quaker Ridge or Fenway not knowing the pedigree, they would again know they had played a great course.


I think when a architect can build a few of these, he must be considered great. And I think Doak has shown that he has, along with C&C. I think in a few years Hanse could be as well.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Garland Bayley

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2007, 08:07:50 PM »
OK, I am going to be polite (honest). Some people will think you are off your rocker for putting Fazio amongst the great.

You question says "when". I think they have to be dead for sometime before you can truly decide they are great. Before then, they may just have been a fad.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 08:08:17 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2007, 08:37:53 PM »
When he looks in the mirror and knows in his own mind he is doing work a tthe top of his profession.

Mike_Cirba

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2007, 09:55:12 PM »

If you took someone who didn't know Tillinghast and had them play his lesser known courses, I think most would be smitten by them. Sure, they have heard of Winged Foot and recently Bethpage, but I feel if they were to play SFGC, Somerset Hills, Baltimore CC, Quaker Ridge or Fenway not knowing the pedigree, they would again know they had played a great course.


David,

While I agree with your overall theory, I think the course you named would hardly fall into the category of "lesser known courses", especially amongst this well-travelled group.

On the other hand, your contention is dead on correct.

This past weekend, I had the pleasure of playing Tillinghast's "Fox Hill CC" near Pittston, in northeast, PA.

Talk about your "hidden gems"!!!

At least half of the holes were brilliant, virtually all of the greens were wonderfully challenging and interesting, and the course fell so easily upon the land as to feel like a musical concerto without a single solitary sour note.

It's probably only a 5.5 on the Doak scale, yet it was never meant to be more grandiose than that.

So, in that sense, it has a certain type of perfection about it that is unmistakable and crystalline clear 80-some years after he designed it.  

Thankfully, the club never did have the money or the interest to become more than what they were originally, so despite the modest addition of a few tees (as well as a really wise tree-management program), it may as well be 1924 when one ventures out there today.

More importantly, and more germane to John's question, I would bet bottom dollar that anyone here being placed blindly on that course would immediately recognize that they were in the presence of a master.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 10:17:24 PM by MPCirba »

John_Cullum

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2007, 10:58:58 PM »
Is Crump great? How about Fownes or Chandler Egan?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Glenn Spencer

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 11:07:54 PM »
Is Crump great? How about Fownes or Chandler Egan?

My vote would be no. I don't consider Flock of Seagulls a great band.

David Stamm

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 12:20:00 AM »

If you took someone who didn't know Tillinghast and had them play his lesser known courses, I think most would be smitten by them. Sure, they have heard of Winged Foot and recently Bethpage, but I feel if they were to play SFGC, Somerset Hills, Baltimore CC, Quaker Ridge or Fenway not knowing the pedigree, they would again know they had played a great course.


David,

While I agree with your overall theory, I think the course you named would hardly fall into the category of "lesser known courses", especially amongst this well-travelled group.

 

Agreed Mike. I was actually thinking of golfers in general. It's rare that this group hasn't heard of any of the courses I mentioned. In fact, I don't think "hidden gem" applies to most here, chances are they have heard of the course before we have!
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Joel_Stewart

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 01:51:05 AM »
When they build something that is world class or their work is universally admired and revered.

I don't see Jones SR. or Fazio in this category.  I know its subjective but their is not one Raynor, Mackenzie, CBM course that I wouldn't want to play.  There are plenty of Fazio courses that I have no interest in playing.

Peter Carroll

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 01:52:06 AM »
IMHO being prolific is not high on my list for GCA greatness.  You are great in my books if your only contribution was a course of the calibre of, from the course I have played, Royal Melbourne, Royal County Down or St Andrews Old.  The architect has given their successors a life time to study the "greatness" of their work.

Conversely for a professional player consistency/longevity would be far more important as a measure of greatness.

I think the artistic/creative aspect, the effort required to perform one "project" and the permancy of the output does have an effect.

Peter

Jim Nugent

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 03:27:03 AM »
When they build something that is world class or their work is universally admired and revered.

I don't see Jones SR. or Fazio in this category.  I know its subjective but their is not one Raynor, Mackenzie, CBM course that I wouldn't want to play.  There are plenty of Fazio courses that I have no interest in playing.

Joel, how about Donald Ross?  Any courses of his you don't want to play...and do you consider him great?  

Rich Goodale

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 07:43:34 AM »
I personally apply the Tony the Tiger criterion.  If you play, or walk or even just look at a course and say:  GRRREEEEEAAATTTT!, then it's great.

John Kavanaugh

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2007, 08:15:08 AM »
As an example...I was more interested in how you would fill in a blank such as this.  Kelly Blake Moran is a _______ architect.  What would be the posssible multiple choice answers you might include on a aptitude test?

Regional
Fine
Prolific
Great
Over rated
Respected
Young

What else?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 08:19:04 AM by John Kavanaugh »

wsmorrison

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2007, 08:20:03 AM »
golf course

John Kavanaugh

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2007, 08:23:15 AM »
golf course

I personally see a subtle insult in always including golf course when talking about architects who design golf courses.  I don't think anyone would call Frank Lloyd Wright a house architect.

John Kavanaugh

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2007, 08:25:13 AM »
Frank Lloyd Wright (June 8, 1867 – April 9, 1959) was one of the world's most prominent and influential architects.

From Wikipedia above....prominent and influential is pretty strong.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 08:26:02 AM by John Kavanaugh »

wsmorrison

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2007, 08:31:08 AM »
Frank Lloyd Wright designed residences, office buildings, museums, hotels, apartment buildings, studios and places of worship.  To call him a house architect would ignore his portfolio of work.  I doubt KBM or any other golf course architect would be insulted (subtle or otherwise) in being called a golf course architect.  That's his profession, it isn't who he is.  For you to personally see insult in that is strange, even for you.

To call Paul Cowley a golf course architect, now that would be insulting.  He is also a land planner and building architect.  Something tells me he personally wouldn't take it as a slight in any case.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 08:34:02 AM by Wayne Morrison »

John Kavanaugh

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2007, 08:56:34 AM »
Wayne,

In your book do you call Flynn a great architect or a great golf course architect.  In the thousands of times you use the word architecture how often do you use the words golf course to describe.  

wsmorrison

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2007, 09:04:38 AM »
John,

We describe his work in great detail (1600 pages of text, drawings and photographs).  I think the reader can make up their own mind about whether this rises to a level of greatness.  There is no objective scale one can use; greatness is in the eye of the beholder.  There are quite a few popular architects that I do not consider great.  Others do and that is not disturbing to me at all.  I am not overly concerned with what other people think is great.  

As we referenced Flynn thousands of times in the book, if we constantly referred to him as an architect or golf course architect, I think the readers would grow tired of the redundancy.  We referred to him simply as Flynn or William Flynn.  The title of the book mentions that he is a golf course architect.  We're hoping the consumer will consider the title of the book while reading it.  I also think it obvious for Tom and I to spend so much time researching and writing the book, that most will understand that we think he is one of the great GOLF COURSE architects.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 09:06:27 AM by Wayne Morrison »

John Kavanaugh

Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2007, 09:06:40 AM »
What word do you use in the title besides golf course?

Adam Clayman

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Re:When does an architect earn the GREAT label?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2007, 09:10:46 AM »
When the whole, on just one of their courses, is greater than the sum of it's parts.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle