[Mike Hendren]

I speculate that few here are fans of the tree in bunker element because it doubly penalizes the player.  Cannot the same be said for thick (watered) rough and extremely firm (parched and rolled) greens?

Mike

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

I think one could say that. But, I think you would avoid it for general play, and maybe it's OK to test the best players in the world, in a square groove sort of way.

 

Joe

[John Kavanaugh]

How about a general lack of talent and old age.  I can't hardly think of a golf shot without at least two possible penal outcomes.

[mike_malone]

 I actually like an occasional hardwood tree in a bunker. Since it's already a hazard adding the aerial hazard doesn't bother me. Now , as you get closer to the green the idea becomes bad because you run out of room to move the ball.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ah, the double penalty.....

If you went to Ireland or even Shinnecock with its steep faced bunkers, you would likely have to play out sideways every once in a while.  Why is playing sideways because of a tree different than because of a steep/tall bank, bad lie, or tall grass?

I guess double penalty is golfspeak for "I can't fire at the pin" after hitting a bunker, even though I knew the penalty before planning and executing my tee shot, and that just ain't fair!

Seriously, while I wouldn't do a lot of this on a design, if it happens a few times, it should be just one more thing you factor into your tee shot and then accept the penalty, no?

[John Kavanaugh]

Ah, the double penalty.....

If you went to Ireland or even Shinnecock with its steep faced bunkers, you would likely have to play out sideways every once in a while.  Why is playing sideways because of a tree different than because of a steep/tall bank, bad lie, or tall grass?

I guess double penalty is golfspeak for "I can't fire at the pin" after hitting a bunker, even though I knew the penalty before planning and executing my tee shot, and that just ain't fair!

Seriously, while I wouldn't do a lot of this on a design, if it happens a few times, it should be just one more thing you factor into your tee shot and then accept the penalty, no?

Exactly.  Is the double penalty theory strickly a Golfclubatlas thing?  I have never heard it mentioned by anyone outside this site and the few unfortuneate times I have brought it up I have been simply told to get over it.  Is the double penalty mentioned anywhere in the old classics.

[Kalen Braley]

Ah, the double penalty.....

If you went to Ireland or even Shinnecock with its steep faced bunkers, you would likely have to play out sideways every once in a while.  Why is playing sideways because of a tree different than because of a steep/tall bank, bad lie, or tall grass?

I guess double penalty is golfspeak for "I can't fire at the pin" after hitting a bunker, even though I knew the penalty before planning and executing my tee shot, and that just ain't fair!

Seriously, while I wouldn't do a lot of this on a design, if it happens a few times, it should be just one more thing you factor into your tee shot and then accept the penalty, no?

You can be in the fairway and still get the double penalty by being behind a tree/trees on the inside of the dogleg where ones only play is to "chip out" to a different part of the fairway

[mike_malone]

 I think the relevance of the bunker/tree double penalty is when a tree or trees are planted within the line of play of a bunker  well AFTER the bunker was placed there. I have heard this discussed in many circles; I believe it is referenced in USGA pieces on trees.

[JESII]

Tell me about the tree/bunker double penalty when the bunker is so well prepared the player would prefer it to the rough...

[Tommy Williamsen]

If you count waste area as a bunker, I disagree. It is just a part of the lure of many courses.  Pine Valley certainly comes to mind as does my course in South Carolina, Musgrove Mill.  It gives you another reason not to hit it in the bunker.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

The double penalty cliche is not just a Golf Club Atlas thing.  I've been hearing it for twenty years.  Nicklaus even told us we should remove a native sand bunker on one hole at Sebonack (the 16th) because there was a tree in the way and it would be a double penalty.

Personally, I think it's okay once in a great while to ask a player who has hit well off line to play a shot out of a bunker and over or around a tree (or play safely away from it).

[Mark Bourgeois]

Just eat it...

[Joe Hancock]

Mark,

One would have to be very unlucky to be able to get a ball into that bunker in the bottom picture.

Joe

[Mark Bourgeois]

Joe,

Never underestimate the power of the human spirit to find a way.

Mark

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