[Ian Andrew]

We've been down this road before with Turnberry, but I will forever feel there was an even better course on that property.

From the poor land at the finish, through to the use of the ocean around the lighthouse, I'm left wondering what it could have been.

[Chris_Clouser]

What about Prairie Dunes?  I will always wonder why Press laid out holes 11 through 16 the way he did.

[JSlonis]

Wasn't Piping Rock's routing compromised by the polo fields there? Ran's course profile suggests Macdonald was so upset at not being able to use the polo grounds that he ceded some of the control of its construction to Seth Raynor.

Even though Macdonald didn't get to use the polo grounds, I would say that the routing of Piping Rock works very well.  The more interesting terrain is away from the flat polo fields anyway.

[JSlonis]

What about those of you who have created a routing for a course only to see another architect get the job, and are aghast at the routing that was chosen?

Or a safer question - are there courses where the routings of two different (and now deceased ) architects exist, where the "road not taken" might have resulted in a better course?

If I'm not mistaken, I believe a similar issue to the one you mentioned took place at Tom Doak's original Stonewall course in PA.  I think Fazio may have done some initial routing plans and was then later replaced by Doak.  I'm not sure of any of the details, perhaps Tom can chime in if he sees this thread.

[Jeff_Brauer]

What about those of you who have created a routing for a course only to see another architect get the job, and are aghast at the routing that was chosen?

Or a safer question - are there courses where the routings of two different (and now deceased ) architects exist, where the "road not taken" might have resulted in a better course?

Kirk,

I have had that happen - both on winning and losing ends.  I think every gca has had that happen, its quite common.

Once, I even had it happen where I liked the losing routing better and we got the job!  (when working for Killian and Nugent, I happened to see the routing prepared by your uncle Dave Gill for a project we got, and I liked that one much better.  Only problem was, we got the project because we routed it just where the Parks director wanted it, with the range using up the best land, albiet facing into the sun.)_

As to whether a course "might" have been better, I suspect that happens as well, but again, 1) how can you measure, and 2) what's to say both courses wouldn't be fine and have relative strengths and weaknesses.  Besides being difficult to compare to what's not there, its hard to assess in shades of gray rather than black and white.  Chances are neither would be clearly better, only better in certain ways, but weaker in others.

For that matter, whose to say that one gca wouldn't route a course better, but then not make as good a use of the land if creating the features?

[Kirk Gill]

Jeff, my uncle never got over the disappointment of losing that job........

But of course you're right about what constitutes "better." Not that it stops virtually everyone from unequivocally stating that one course is better than another, so I figure the same mentality can be applied to routings, yes? In fact, it's probably easier to firmly state that an unbuilt routing is better than the one that was used, since the basis for such a conclusion is pure conjecture, which is always hard to argue with.  


"We're not confused, we have no idea what we're doing."
                                                     -anon.


My understanding is that Tom Fazio was brought in at one point as the possible architect for Colorado Golf Club, and wanted to put the course on a completely different piece of the property than C&C ultimately used. Not only was the routing completely different, but the actual bit of land each architect chose was completely different. It sure would be fun to compare the original routings............

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

Pardon me but I am going out the door for dinner with my lovely wife and I have only had time to read your first post on the subject -- but you have succinctly listed all the stuff I expected from the amateurs on the forum.

Everything you listed is the two-dimensional approach to routing.  A routing is only relevant in three dimensions.  Whether you can see where you're going ... whether the landing areas and greens are receptive to the kind of shots you want people to play ... whether the green sites are interesting ... to me those are the keys to doing a good routing, not the checklist stuff.

[George Pazin]

Assessing routings is a bit like comparing a novel Faulkner wrote to a novel he might have written.

Such simple wisdom.

 

I suspect only other architects, particularly ones who've seen the virgin land, can really compare routings effectively.

However, I can quickly tell a bad routing - it's not walkable!

 

[Mike Benham]

In the US, the hillside routing of Olympic quickly comes to mind.  

Jeffrey:
Ouch.  I'm with Doak here this could get ugly.  

Why would you consider Olympic's routing poor?  

Maybe I just don't like hillside courses! So, perhaps this is a "site selection" problem for me.  I critique Augusta for going up and down the hills, and Olympic for following the contours!  I am not sure I think its a poor routing - I think Olympic probably does as well as it can for its site.

That said, at Olympic, virtually every tee shot is a dogleg with a reverse slope fw - and on a tight routing that forced them to plant a lot of trees for safety, meaning every tee shot is aimed an inch inside the branches. Not a lot of variety there, and granted, Augusta does better.

Having played The Lake™ more then anyone on this board (except for Gib and Joel and Reilly and Tepper and, never mind …), I think you are exaggerating the # of dogleg and reverse camber fairways.  In firm and fast conditions, any dogleg on any course plays like a reverse camber because the ball can’t be controlled once it is bouncing along the ground.  In the days when The Lake™ is playing soft, a high tee ball will hold the fairway, mainly on holes #4 and #5 where the reverse camber issue is most spoke of.

I can’t agree that The Lake™ is a tight routing.  In the days prior to the tree removal and trimming project (still not complete in my opinion), it was a claustrophobic play, due to the quantity of trees not necessarily where they are placed.  

There is ample room between most fairways and on only a few holes would I say that the trees are needed for safety.  For the most part, it takes some doing to actually hit into the trees on a majority of the holes.

The tree work has really opened up the course and except for #4, #12 and #16, you do not have the chute effect or have the need to aim your shot one inch inside the branches.

I’m not picking on you Jeff, but I think it is fair to say The Lake™ has changed over the past 5 years and is much better test of golf with all the tree work and move to firmer and faster turf.



#3:  Pre-tree clearing ...





#3:  Post-tree clearing ...

[Mark Bourgeois]

Assessing routings is a bit like comparing a novel Faulkner wrote to a novel he might have written.

Through the fence, between the curling flower spaces, I could see them hitting routing. They were coming toward where the flag CAD laptop was and I went along the fence. Luster was hunting sketching in the grass by the flower tree. They took the flag CAD laptop out, and they were hitting routing. Then they put the flag CAD laptop back and they went to the table, and he hit routed and the other hit routed. Then they went on, and I went along the fence.

[David Miller]

Another possibility is Augusta National - I have always vaguely felt that using the old plantation house as the clubhouse made them go too much up and down the hills and that on that property, there may have been better routings.

This has some validity to me.  Perhaps they could have used site's natural features better to avoid the anti-climactic 17-18 finish--those holes bother me every year.

[Mark_F]

Kingston Heath?  Just to get 18 holes on that property is exceptional, much less 18 of that quality.

Why?

There are three long par fives, there could have been less, a'la Rye or West Sussex.

There could have been another par three, or even two. Or three, a'la The Berkshire.

There could have been another short par four. Or two, or three.

If the ultimate object of a routing is to maximize the use of a site's natural features, whilst minimizing the inevitable tradeoffs that occur, has Kingston Heath done this?

After all, you cannot see where you are going on a number of holes.

Is there anything intrinsically special about the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 14th or 18th greensites that demand the course must be there as it is?

Surely a couple of the best holes there, 3 and 10, could have been built anywhere on that property.

Rich Macafee:

I'm not bagging Kingston Heath! And you won't hear a mention of Woodlands from me, although I can't vouch for that terrible James L character.

[Tom_Doak]

At the risk of offending Golf's Most Beloved Figure, I'll just say that I have always been amazed that Yeamans Hall could be surrounded on three sides by salt marsh / river and yet use it so little.  Of course, it was routed by Raynor only in collaboration with Olmstead, and it's likely he wasn't allowed to put the holes anywhere he wanted ... but it's amazing that the course is considered so great without really utilizing the most dramatic features of the property.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

As for Kingston Heath, what natural features are there to misuse, other than the big hill near holes 8, 15 and 16?

I think that routing does a great job of doubling back on itself and getting you feeling lost, despite a number of parallel holes forced by the small acreage.  Had it been done in two loops of nine it would be much more predictable, a la Victoria, which is better property but not as good of a golf course.

[Andy Hughes]

Through the fence, between the curling flower spaces, I could see them hitting routing.

Geez Mark, I must have read the first 20-30 pages a dozen times at least. Couldn't for the life of me figure out what the dickens was going on.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Andy, originally Faulkner wanted to print the book in four colors, to distinguish the POVs. As it would have bankrupted the publisher, they went with italics instead, to the eternal confusion of us!

Sean and Ian, yes we've been down that road before. I think a better judgment is how much Ross managed to improve upon the original routing, given the enormous postwar cost constraints combined with surprising number of intact prewar holes and "footprints." Surely these forced him to retain as much as possible, certainly the routing.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Sand Hills, because there were infinitely many great routings to choose between, and those simpletons C&C could only give us one!

 

[paul cowley]

I love this thread!

[RichMacafee]

Is there anything intrinsically special about the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 14th or 18th greensites that demand the course must be there as it is?

Surely a couple of the best holes there, 3 and 10, could have been built anywhere on that property.  

To me it is bleedingly obvious that there is no such thing as a great course with bad routing, that is a given IMO. That wasn't the question though, it was 'which is the worst'.

Mark,

You really have answered your own questions. 3 and 10 could have been built anywhere on the property. And all the greens you mentioned are great greens, but not great green sites necessarily. That is the beauty (and subtlety) of the golf course. Not everyone had RM's land to build their course.

15 is the only green that 'demands' to be on the site it is to be great.

[Adrian_Stiff]

This seems a really silly thread.... effectively ..whats the worst best one. You cant have a badly routed great course.

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Great get from The Sound and the Fury. I had forgotten about that passage. I did not have it in mind when I referred to Faulkner's novels above. Benji boils golf down to its essence, no?

Faulkner played golf in Oxford. Mostly when he should have been tending to his duties as the postmaster. There is a story that someone came to the post office to inquire about magazines that he had not received for several months. They found piles of undelivered mail in a back room.

They went looking for Faulkner and found him on the golf course playing with some Ole Miss buddies. Faulkner was shit faced drunk.

He was fired the next day.

Bob

[BCrosby]

This seems a really silly thread....

To the contrary - to quote the always eloquent Paul Cowley - "I love this thread."

[Mark Bourgeois]

Good one, Bob!

How bout when he won the Nobel? A few weeks before the ceremony, he sets off on a "hunting trip" with friends and goes on a two week bender. Just completely smashed the entire time.

His friends start to panic, thinking they're responsible for ruining the presentation - assuming they can even get him on a plane.

Just in time, Faulkner sobers up, makes the trip - and gives the greatest Nobel address in history and one of the great speeches of the 20th century.

Although those who were there say they only discovered what he said the next day, when they read the text in the paper.

Apparently, he gave the speech barely above a hoarse whisper.

As they say down South, the man's a champion!

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

I've got that speech bookmarked, Mark.  For those who haven't read it (and those who have), enjoy.

http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/faulkner/lib_nobel.html

Rich

[Forrest Richardson]

There is so much to routing that one could write an entire book about it. Here is how I would divide up the importance:

When a site has natural features — and not all do — the use of those features is of utmost importance.

Obviously, the degree of natural features of a site will adjust the following percentages, which account for the balance...

Basics (checklist stuff, as Tom D. puts it):  40%
Innovation, interest, intrigue:  30%
Ability to overcome obstacles and constraints and still make sense: 30%

(By the way, I reserve the right to change my mind on tyhe above. These are initial thoughts)

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