Orchard Creek GC

[Jim_Kennedy]

On Friday I played Orchard Creek GC in Altamont NY and thoroughly enjoyed it. Paul Cowley is the architect and he had his thinking cap on when laying this one out. He had an orchard, a river, stream, and wetlands to contend with, along with topography that forced the course along ridgetops, down onto the flatlands and across a hill or two.He used them all to good advantage  It makes for a nice blend of uphill, downhill, and level holes. Same goes for the approaches, up, down and eye-level. There aren’t any blind approach shots but you weren’t going to see the putting surface on many holes. He did incorporate a few blind tee shots into the design and one that comes to mind is at number 2, where you aim at a ‘wall’, which is really the bank of a river that’s a good 10’ high and 50 or so yards in front of the teebox. At first I walked right past (no markers), wondering why it was there, until I cleared a hill and saw the hole. The boxes being used that day were up there- I had to walk back down.
     
  It's a nice mix of yardages, there are a couple of long par 4s on each nine with one drivable par 4 on the back; long and short par 5s on each nine, and a nice spread for the five par 3s, from 162 to 257(thankfully downhill) yards. There are holes that can make you feel like a champ and holes that can make you feel like a chump  
  The fairways are reasonably generous, although they don’t look it from some tees, and they were firm. Aim your tee shot with care, there are good, better and best places to be.
  The greens were of a size that felt appropriate for what was required to hit them. Don’t look for flat ones, you won’t find many. Paul wasn’t providing any rest periods, the par 3 eleventh hole has a 3 tiered green that drops away from front to back, thankfully it’s only 164 yds.from the back tee.
     
There were a couple of ‘too bads”. The second hole, a par 4 beauty along the river, has that great blind tee shot but there is a large transmission tower in view behind its wonderful volcano green.  
Behind the 18th green they are building what looks like a huge maintenance barn. The approach is pretty flat and ends at a ground-level green, so it really sticks out.  
 
It costs $32.00 to walk, a steal.

http://www.orchardcreek.com
 

[paul cowley]

Jim.....I am glad you enjoyed the experience.
Orchard Creek is my minimalist marvel, in both the earth moved and budget categories.....complimented by some of the finest owners that grace this business.....four second generation apple farming brothers who thought that they might want to diversify the farm instead of re planting 160 acres of old orchard trees.

Its unpretentious golf they way it is on the other side of the pond....... and the way it ought to be more here.

[Tim Gavrich]

Oh my goodness...this brings me back to my early days of junior golf.  I played in Plantations Junior Golf Tour events at Orchard Creek twice.  I hadn't thought about the golf course in a very long time until now.

I remember Orchard Creek very fondly.  There are certainly some very memorable holes--among them the par 3 6th hole, with a large mound in the exact center of the green, and then the final five holes.  I always thought it was cool having 14 play as an uphill ~270 yard par 4 and turning around and having 15 play as a downhill ~260 yard par three.  Number 16 is a brute of a par 5, with hazards in play on every shot, if memory serves.  Number 17 is a solid par 3, and then 18 is an extremely cool reachable par 5, with an awesome moat-style green complex.  Man oh man, I may need to make a pilgrimage up there sometime this summer, just for nostalgia's sake.

I also liked the fact that in the Fall, one doesn't need to buy any nourishment on the golf course--as the 18 holes are each named for a type of apple, I was wont to pluck a suitable-looking fruit from one of the trees and enjoy.

[David Harshbarger]

Had the pleasure of playing the front nine today, and very much enjoyed the course.  There's movement everywhere, every shot, all the greens.  Up, down, left, right, all combos.  Also, holes come into and out of view all through the routing.  The pro, when asked what to pay attention to, said check the pins on holes you see as you play, you'll need that info later.

Many holes had significant divisions in the greens.  I really liked 5.  Three tiers wheeled around a bunker left front,on a shortish par 4.  All the greens were fun, though, as were all of the holes.

The league regulars commented on the 16th as being one of the toughest Par 5's they've played. 

My think-like-an-architect moment was on 6 tee.  The view there shows just a bit of part of the right front green on a short 135 member tee 3. My observation was the view lines were carved out of a small ridge, very naturally done, but also bedeviling to the golfer.  This couples with the green with a large mound that makes Finding the right segment so important.

another cool part of the routing was the way the course bends and winds around itself.  No two holes on the front play in the same direction.

I am definitely looking forward to playing the course again.  Well done.

[Tom ORourke]

I played here a number of times when it first opened. There are a lot of interesting holes on the course. Some are very difficult (7, 16), some easy. Pretty much all of the holes are good. There is the par 4 14th followed by the par 3 15th where the par 3 is almost as long as the 4. That tells you what kind of elevation change exists there. My favorite memory is when my then 16 year old son flew a ball into the cup on the 6th hole, but it tore the back of the cup out and finished on the lip. He then made an ace on 11, so he was THIS CLOSE to two aces in one round. It is a good course and at that price it is a steal. And you could eat apples right off the trees on some holes. If you are near Albany or in the Catskills it is a great deal and worth playing.

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,

Great terrain for golf, Paul Cowley didn't have to use many fairway bunkers to make it interesting.

The 16th is a fun hole. It's visually intimidating from the tee but it plays wider than it looks.

I haven't looked in at their website for a while, but I see it's now $35.00 to walk it, a whopping $3.00 increase from 2007. 


p.s After 12 pm on the weekend it's only $27.00.   

[Dan Byrnes]

I have played there a lot.  It's a decent place some real nice holes and quality greens for a $32 public.

Out of curiosity the par 3 with the big hump in the middle?  Why?  It can't be properly maintained and  can make a GIR still  a nearly impossible par?

I am not a fan at all of #2 but I am not an architecture buff like so many here.  Those two holes really take away from the rest of the course.  I can understand the routing causing #2 but why the other hole?  Can't recall the number.

Dan

[Jim_Kennedy]

I have played there a lot.  It's a decent place some real nice holes and quality greens for a $32 public.

Out of curiosity the par 3 with the big hump in the middle?  Why?  It can't be properly maintained and  can make a GIR still  a nearly impossible par?

I am not a fan at all of #2 but I am not an architecture buff like so many here.  Those two holes really take away from the rest of the course.  I can understand the routing causing #2 but why the other hole?  Can't recall the number.

Dan

Dan,
I think you're talking about the par three 6th hole. There are a good 10 paces or so of green surface that surround the mound in the green. I've seen the top of it get a little scalped but the rest of the green is fine, with plenty of room for pin locations.
I could see how it could be tagged as controversial, same as a green with a bunker in its middle. I've taken guys there and suggested that they play to the front of the green (as long as the flagstick isn't tucked behind the mound), that way they can get at the cup if it's placed in a front, left, or right side position.

If I had the chainsaw for a day at OC I'd cut back the trees on the right side of the fairway so the volcano green would be more visible, and accessible, if you hit a shorter tee shot. I prefer playing the hole from the lower tee box, the high creek bankthat you need to carry is a bit quirky and old school.  

If I remember correctly Paul Cowley built the course for about 1.5mil and charged something like 35k for his services. The green fees could easily be 30% higher than they are now and still be seen as a good deal.    

[Dan Byrnes]

The green is plenty large but I just don't see why what I asume was a large rock was left there.  Might as well put in a windmill and be able to it through it like mini golf.

Typically the grass condition on the mound is poor and it must imcrease maintence costs?

I am curious was it strictly a money savings issue in removing the rock or whatever it is, or was there really a thoughtful design strategy involved?  I can better understand a bunker as it may make sense to play to the bunker to access certain pins?

Purely cost savings at construction?

From the tees I typically play you can't see the green?

The place certainly is quality for the greens fee, the problem is the area is over run with private golf clubs and Altamont is not easy to get to from many area of the Capital District so they really can't charge a premium price.  If you live nearby it's a great deal for a season pass.  I always enjoy playing there a few times a year.

Dan

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
Albany (if I remember correctly) ranks #2 in golfers per capita, and there are numerous choices, both private and public.

I have no problem with the mound in the middle, it's quirky but it does ask that you play to the proper section of the green. As to the 'why' of it all, maybe Paul Cowley will see this and chime in.

[David Harshbarger]

Dan,

Having attended to GCA.com for a year now I got a good chuckle out of 6. 

1.  Regardless of which tees you play you get a chance to see the pin on 6 coming off three on the way to 4. In fact, of the 4 blind/semi-blind greens on the front, only on the volcano green do you have a chance to preview the green and pin earlier, in passing.  To me, that shows a high-level of architecture at play, as sight lines in the routing are setup based on the playing characteristics of unrelated holes (to be played later).  This was also done without a feeling that the holes are on top of each other.  They maintain their identity, well.

2.  The tee boxes on 6 vary not just the distance, but also the degree of blindness of the green.  Separating the tees from the green is a slot which I think is cut into a minor ridge that would separate the tee and green.  The back tees are lower and to the right, the middle and forward tees are higher and to the left.  From the back tees, I'm told the green is totally blind.  From the middle, the ridge obscures the left part of the green but the right front was visible (just).  I would be stunned if Paul found that cut there.  I think the cut is deliberate, as is the amount of blindness resulting: partial for lesser players, full for better.

3.  The mound is severe, true, and it was mostly bare sand, but, you shoud know it is there and if you aren't used to putting one, they have one built into the practice green, too.

4.  The mound isn't really any different than tiers defined by a ridge.  What's different is the green is divided radially, not linearly.  Based on the day, 1/3 of the green is probably safe, another 1/3 has to navigate the flanks of the mound, and the remaining 1/3 has to deal with the hump.

5.  At least on the right and front, not having noticed the left, there's ample room off the green for easy recoveries.  So, from a strategic angle, the thinking strategy is to play to miss off the green, pinside, as opposed to on the green, but with the mound intervening. 

All-in-all, a well done short hole, and another interesting challenge on the course.

[Tom ORourke]

There is some degree of quirk on a few holes out there. I mentioned on an earlier post that my son had an ace on #11. That is a two level green but the front is higher than the back so you can not see the bottom of the flag when the pin is in the back. We had 4 good tee shots and thought there were only 3 balls on the green until we passed by the hole. The mound in the green on 6 is different as well, but why not? A little quirkiness rather than "same old same old" is okay with me. Neither situation is unfair. If the pin is on the back on 6 just take enough club to get to the back of the green. The 14th is a hole where you can tee off with a 5 iron or a driver and easily make a better score with the iron. I like something different now and then. Life is dull with only vanilla.

[Dan Byrnes]

Dan,
Albany (if I remember correctly) ranks #2 in golfers per capita, and there are numerous choices, both private and public.

I have no problem with the mound in the middle, it's quirky but it does ask that you play to the proper section of the green. As to the 'why' of it all, maybe Paul Cowley will see this and chime in.

Really.  I didn't now that about Albany, I would love to see those stats if they are available.  Lots of golf courses for sure, probabally to many.  I don't know how Orchard Creek does.

Dan

[paul cowley]

Jim - Dan - David...missed this til now!

Thanks for your thoughts and conjectures. Orchard Creek is, and always will be one of my favorite creations. It resonates for me on many levels...my home town, great clients/friends, good site, my smallest budget and a chance to build a course and facility that I feel truly represents what the game is all about....affordability, fun and a great place to enjoy friendships, both on and off the course.

But about #6  

Jim is right...the course was low budget...the hard cost of construction was probably closer to 1.2M, but it's value dollar for dollar was stretched, as the 4 brother/owners were also very capable farmers and built much of the course themselves. My design fee was small and it didn't allow for as many trips as I would have liked. Typically I would work with them while there and stake and layout features in the field...and then leave sketches and construction details for them when I wasn't there. The budget didn't allow for many tweeks or changes to the holes that were created during my absence....most I had to live with...which is OK.

#6 was the last hole to be built and I was informed we had only 15K left for shaping the hole and greens construction (greens mix, drainage and irrigation materials had already been purchased). The hole plays uphill about 15 to 20' and the green site available for this very compact site (about 150 acres total including wetlands and the Bozenkill creek) was on the backside of a low sloping ridge and totally blind. I did consider a "Dell" type par 3, which would have fit the budget easier, but declined that option in favor of the compromise that exists today, as I felt there was already enough natural quirk going on. We pushed the low ridge back to raise the green site, and built up the tees enough to at least view the fronting edge of the green through the gap we created. In doing so we were rapidly running of of funds. I layed out the green and sketched the complex with the mound in the middle. I included no bunkers as the would be unseen. From all the tees you can see the top of the mound and once you play it you can determine by the flag which side of the green to play to...a very minimalist strategy for a blind green surface. I left the complex rather featureless...roundish and a flat plane except for the mound...so as to allow for a easily uploaded game plan for players after they play the hole the first time....the mound in the center is the traffic cop who tells you what to do by using the flags location to give you directions.

I left and returned a month later after the green had been cored out and the drainage and greens mix installed. In a bigger budget world I would have made some small and subtle changes, but overall I'm happy with the response the hole evokes from players...it seems to have more supporters than detractors. It's a good, challenging hole that I feel is fair...and fun.

BTW, I have asked of the owners that some trees on the right side of #2 green be removed, as I feel they penalize the higher scoring players more than the lower. I think they've have removed some on the hill, and all of the apple trees in the flat rough on the right.

Nowadays, Pat Mucci might just say "leave well enough alone"...and you know...he might be right!

[Dan Byrnes]

Jim - Dan - David...missed this til now!

Thanks for your thoughts and conjectures. Orchard Creek is, and always will be one of my favorite creations. It resonates for me on many levels...my home town, great clients/friends, good site, my smallest budget and a chance to build a course and facility that I feel truly represents what the game is all about....affordability, fun and a great place to enjoy friendships, both on and off the course.

But about #6  

Jim is right...the course was low budget...the hard cost of construction was probably closer to 1.2M, but it's value dollar for dollar was stretched, as the 4 brother/owners were also very capable farmers and built much of the course themselves. My design fee was small and it didn't allow for as many trips as I would have liked. Typically I would work with them while there and stake and layout features in the field...and then leave sketches and construction details for them when I wasn't there. The budget didn't allow for many tweeks or changes to the holes that were created during my absence....most I had to live with...which is OK.

#6 was the last hole to be built and I was informed we had only 15K left for shaping the hole and greens construction (greens mix, drainage and irrigation materials had already been purchased). The hole plays uphill about 15 to 20' and the green site available for this very compact site (about 150 acres total including wetlands and the Bozenkill creek) was on the backside of a low sloping ridge and totally blind. I did consider a "Dell" type par 3, which would have fit the budget easier, but declined that option in favor of the compromise that exists today, as I felt there was already enough natural quirk going on. We pushed the low ridge back to raise the green site, and built up the tees enough to at least view the fronting edge of the green through the gap we created. In doing so we were rapidly running of of funds. I layed out the green and sketched the complex with the mound in the middle. I included no bunkers as the would be unseen. From all the tees you can see the top of the mound and once you play it you can determine by the flag which side of the green to play to...a very minimalist strategy for a blind green surface. I left the complex rather featureless...roundish and a flat plane except for the mound...so as to allow for a easily uploaded game plan for players after they play the hole the first time....the mound in the center is the traffic cop who tells you what to do by using the flags location to give you directions.

I left and returned a month later after the green had been cored out and the drainage and greens mix installed. In a bigger budget world I would have made some small and subtle changes, but overall I'm happy with the response the hole evokes...which as this thread suggests is more than any other. It does seem to have more supporters than detractors. It's a good, challenging hole that I feel is fair...and fun.

BTW, I have asked of the owners at times that some trees on the right side of #2 green be removed, as I feel they penalize the higher scoring players more so than the lower. I think they've have removed some on the hill, and all of the apple trees in the flat rough on the right.

Nowadays, Pat Mucci might just say "leave well enough alone"...and you know...he might be right!

Is it a rock that could have been moved or was it truly built tat way on purpose?

Are you a Guilderland grad?  I was '83.

The trees that used to run down the left hand side of 2 got cleaned out pretty good in last years storms.  Amazing what those storms did to the place.

Dan

[paul cowley]

Dan...Guilderland 'Dutchman' grad 1970

No rock under the tale of the mound on 6.

I was there the week after the flood....no really bad damage that wasn't cleaned up in a week or so....#2 was improved as you say.

[paul cowley]

Dan - is Donna Byrnes your sister?

[Dan Byrnes]

Dan - is Donna Byrnes your sister?

No my oldest sister is Kathy.  My spelling BYRNES is somewhat rare.  Class of 78 or so?  We grew up in the Schenectady end of Guilderland.  I had a lot of friends who grew up in Altamont, Snyders, Martins, Pentak, Ucci, Ryan-Coppola, to name a few.

Dan