[John Kavanaugh]

The architect I most admire for posting on this site is Forrest...He opens a course he is respectively proud of and the best he gets from you hit and run pieces of crap is that you will stop by just as soon as you have a better offer in the area.  Thanks Forrest...we don't deserve you.

Jaka,

When you did your driving golf tour to LA, how many days did you spend at Forrest courses? You must have passed a few on your way to Riviera!  

Updated Double Standard Score: Jaka 2, Doak 1

When I was in Forrest's neck of the woods I was hit and running Kavanaugh's...4 in 2 days to be exact.

[PThomas]

agree or disagree with Jay's article, it surely is an interesting piece

[John_Cullum]

I really get a charge out of all of the Tom Doak fan club members giving him fawning praise for participating on this site, as if it is some great service to mankind thus elevating him to some sort of golf god to be worshipped.

Tom D is a regular guy just like the rest of us. Like many of the participants on this site, he is very good at what he does-one of the best. But at the end of the day, he is a guy who enjoys reading and posting on Golf Club Atlas. He has told all of us that is the reason he participates. I prefer to let the man participate at his leisure (like the rest of us do) and not pressure him to perform in front of an audience. It can't be easy being god, no thinking man would take the job (Well, Pat Mucci would, but he thinks in mysterious ways.)

The article reeks of obsequious arrogance.

[Brent Hutto]

It can't be easy being god, no thinking man would take the job (Well, Pat Mucci would, but he thinks in mysterious ways.)

A friend of mine used to say, in a different context, that playing god is great fun until bedtime when all the whiners start in with the prayers.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

This isn't about fan clubs and god annointing.  Its about getting insight into a field/profession from someone who has been doing this for decades and has seen more than I would ever hope to see in a lifetime.  Is he the only one that I appreciate reading his comments and thoughts?  Not even close, I enjoy reading everyones comments who work in the industry.

For the record, I haven't seen one person come in here and place expectations that he put on a dog and pony show for the treehouse.  Do people ask him a lot of questions?  Of course. Are people interested in what he has to say?  Of course.  Do people here often disagree with his thoughts/comments?  From what I've seen, very often.

As much as I hate to admit it, I think the leading cadidate for MVP of this site is Barney, because you never know what's coming out of his pie hole next.  If he carried his schtick to the golf course, I would love to play a round with him.  Am I now going to be accused of being the founding member of the Barney club?? I doubt you would ever care about that.

In my opinion, it sounds like you have pre-conceived notions on this issue and jump at any little post to find evidence for this "theory" that you're already convinced of its validity.

We can agree on one thing though, I too think he is very good at what he does and appreciate his work.

[John_Cullum]

In my opinion, it sounds like you have pre-conceived notions on this issue and jump at any little post to find evidence for this "theory" that you're already convinced of its validity.

I don't think that is the case at all. It's just that Jay's article really set me in motion

[Jay Flemma]

You know, all I was trying to do was make a literary comparison...no more no less.  

John Cullum, it most certainly is not hero worship.  I know, I'm the guy who wrote it.  If it was hero worship, I would not have pointed out the absurdity of other people's hero worship of him.  Again, I point to the "paradox of proportionality" thing.  I didn't buy that.  But I'm pointing out how other people grab onto his random mutterings and discuss them in detail.

Obviously however it SEEMS to be more hero worship than I intended...but rmeember the audience is much wider and less experienced about GCA then you on the list.  Most of them don't know anything about ballyneal, never heard of Rock Creek cattle Club and couldn't find Doak in a line up of dizzy gillespie's band.  The rank and file reader of golf publications and the weekend player merely knows the name, knows he did some "great scottish looking courses" of something or other and is looking around for the nearest doak course to play...maybe they heard the term minimalist.

From the point of view of this person, I see the article as more balanced then many of you do.  And for the record John, if you write something more intellectual...a little more highbrow, golf readers will like it.  They are generally well educated and don't like being talked down to.

[John Kavanaugh]

I know this may seem like a blatant attempt to cash in on the love felt for both me and Tom...but if you go to ebay and search either Tom Doak or John Kavanaugh you will find a piece of memorabillia for sale.  www.ebay.com btw...an evelope is commonly known also as an envelope and is empty.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

What I don't get about the article is that if it really is intended for people who couldn't id Doak in a lineup of Gillespie's band (and I love that line!), well... you give no help in identifying him, other than saying he's a golf course architect.  Perhaps a little more background would be in order?  Or is it enough to just say he's a GCA who's done three great courses?

Seems to me you're making a wild literary comparison about a guy who they know nothing about... which is not going to interest them at all... it interests the people in here BIG TIME, as it is one hell of a comparison, particularly for the more literate...

But for someone who doesn't know Doak at all, isn't this flying miles above their heads?

I get not wanting to be talked down to.  But to me this smacks of you bringing up some Lithuanian poet and comparing him to Nicklaus.  I'd be interested, but I'd want to know a bit about the poet first.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

I know this may seem like a blatant attempt to cash in on the love felt for both me and Tom...but if you go to ebay and search either Tom Doak or John Kavanaugh you will find a piece of memorabillia for sale.  www.ebay.com

That is absolutely classic.  I shall watch the bidding closely.

 

[Jay Flemma]

Remember Huck...its a sub-chapter in a larger piece about Doak...its the last chapter in fact, the wrap-up.  by the time we get to the bit I published, they have the backstory.

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha... I did not know that.. I thought this was a piece in and of itself.

Well then, never mind.  It works.  I do see how people perceive it in here as hero-worship though, given there is a LOT of that in this forum.

TH

[Jay Flemma]

I know this may seem like a blatant attempt to cash in on the love felt for both me and Tom...but if you go to ebay and search either Tom Doak or John Kavanaugh you will find a piece of memorabillia for sale.  www.ebay.com btw...an evelope is commonly known also as an envelope and is empty.

see, know that's actually really funny.

And by the way...part of the reason I wrote the piece is that I really like ACYIKAC and hoped people would go read that.  So maybe the piece sells ACYIKAC more than it sells Doak.  I mean that's probly more the reason I wrote what I did...I could have written the doak stuff without the literary comparison.  You know?  But I wanted to highlight good literature too...maybe some people will pick the book up and have a great read.  I mean really, the scene where Morgan teaches the knights to play baseball in their armor is hilarious.  ***WARNING  CLOSE QUOTE BUT NOT EXACT COMING*** "The knights were no different from any other team.  They hated the umpires.  His first decision was usually his last as he would be beaten to a pulp and his friends would carry him home on a shutter."

"I BET IF WALDEN WAS A SITCOM YOU'D ALL KNOW WHAT IT IS!" - Wendy Testaberger.

[John_Cullum]

It's not so much the worship of Tom Doak, its the insertion of one of Twain's more obscure novels into it. I'm guessing more of your readers will be familiar with Tom Doak than the plot line of A Connecticut Yankee. It's the arrogance that sets me off

[Tom Huckaby]

It's not so much the worship of Tom Doak, its the insertion of one of Twain's more obscure novels into it. I'm guessing more of your readers will be familiar with Tom Doak than the plot line of A Connecticut Yankee. It's the arrogance that sets me off

I concur with this.  It is relatively obscure, and thus does come off as arrogant.  But perhaps you fix that earlier in the piece as well?

[Jay Flemma]

It's not so much the worship of Tom Doak, its the insertion of one of Twain's more obscure novels into it. I'm guessing more of your readers will be familiar with Tom Doak than the plot line of A Connecticut Yankee. It's the arrogance that sets me off

Are you kidding me? More obscure novels?!?  Everybody knows the story...it's been retold a grillion times in everything from Bugs Bunny to Saturday night live!  No freakin chance  - NO FREAKIN CHANCE - that more people know Tom Doak than know Connecticut Yankee.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

I don't know... people do know the basic story that a guy goes back in time, as yes that has been re-done many times.  But precious few will know the character's name, how he acted in the book, why he acted as such... and your piece does seem to pre-suppose that.

I gotta go with John here.  But I also give you the benefit of the doubt that you could clear that up a bit elsewhere also... that is, provide a bit more back-story.

TH

[Jay Flemma]

Fair enough they wont have the exact details or Hank Morgan's name, but I think my first graph explains well...the four similarities between Morgan and Doak.

I weep for the day people know sports figures better than classic literature...anybody have a tissue?

[Tom Huckaby]

I guess it works.  But John's point still does resonate to me.  But perhaps that's because I've given up weeping about your very valid take on things... it's existed seemingly forever, and again ain't gonna change.

Notice a common theme in our discussions, Jay?

 

[Kalen Braley]

Barney,

I need pictures of said ebay item.  Call me a skeptic on this one, but I don't know if the seller can be trusted.  

[Peter Pallotta]

John C
I agree with Kalen on this (but perhaps not the part about you having a preconceived notion).

I've thanked, sometimes several times, almost every single architect that posts on here for their contributions (as well as some of the very knowledgable non-professionals). To me it's pretty simple:

If I was a successful film director or published novelist, I'm not sure I would be taking the time -- any time at all -- to debate and discuss and butt-heads with a group of amateurs, especially if some of them continually disparaged my work or technical aspects of it with so little information to go on. What in the hell would I get out of it?  

So, whatever the reasons the architects themselves give for participating here, what I tend to see is their generosity and their love of golf course architecture.  Jeff B, Tom D, Scott W, Mike Y, Mike N, Forrest R [edit: and Paul C, etc etc] all warrant our genuine thanks, and a regard/respect for their opinions. That some of them don't get that is a real shame, but it doesn't seem right to blame the ones who do for our failings.

Peter  

[Jay Flemma]

I guess it works.  But John's point still does resonate to me.  But perhaps that's because I've given up weeping about your very valid take on things... it's existed seemingly forever, and again ain't gonna change.

Notice a common theme in our discussions, Jay?

 

Hey Tom, I respect you but on this I don't agree...duly noted, but overruled.  I appreciate your constructive criticism and your idea is a good thing to keep in the back of my mind as a mistake not to make, but this is not an arrogant piece or too highbrow.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

I can live with the judge's decision - better to aim too high and ask people to rise, then too low and have them stoop.

Well said, well-reasoned.

TH

[John_Cullum]

I don't disagree with any of that Peter.

But from where I sit, Tom Doak participates on this site because he enjoys it, he enjoys talking about golf, he enjoys the humor, he enjoys this unique comaraderie-just like me and you. I want to accomodate him.

I play golf and share happy hour several days a week with a guy who won 22 games one year for the Reds. Sometimes he has some friends out, a few weeks ago he had Goose Gossage out. The last thing these guys want is to hang out with their fan club.

[John Kavanaugh]

Barney,

I need pictures of said ebay item.  Call me a skeptic on this one, but I don't know if the seller can be trusted.  

I don't have a picture of the item but can say that it is an 8.5 x 11 manilla envelope hand addressesd in beautiful architectural lettering.  The item is ready for framing as both the return and sent to address can be viewed on the front of the envelope.  A cancelled machine applied stamp with a Traverse City locale enhances the value.  I hpoe the bidding is hard and fast as I would hate to see this end up outside the GCA family.  If the bidding goes above $10 I will indicate to the winning bidder and to only the winning bidder the one time contents of the item.

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