#8 and #9, Cypress Point

[Jordan Wall]

Yesterday I got into a semi argument with my boss (more like a hard fisted debate) about #8 and #9 at CPC.

About twelve years ago, he played CPC and said some holes, especially #8 and #9, were nothing great and quite simply they were forgetable holes.  I asked him why and he said #8 was just a 5-iron wedge, and #9 was just weird because he had no clue what to do (which I pointed out should make the hole interesting!).
According to him, the only tee shot option on #8 was to take an iron and play safe.  I pointed out that a decent golfer would have a chance at hitting a fade around the corner to gain an advantage for the next shot.  However, he disagreed, strongly, stating that the hole was too much of a dogleg with too many trees on the inside of the dogleg.  I pointed out to him that #9 presnted many options off the tee that really makes the tee shot intruiging, but all he could muster that two holes in a row where a good player can hit 5-iron, wedge, from the back tees should not be on a course considered one of the best in the world.

Obviously, I have never played CPC, and thus its hard for me to defend the holes, but what do fellow gca'ers think of these two holes?
I think my boss is simply to old to remember those holes adequately or just played them poorly..
(*NOTE*)-- The above is a joke we give him all the time, with no disrespect intended at all!

[JESII]

Would love to hear whow old "too old to remember" is...

[wsmorrison]

Jordan,

Do you really think it is wise to get into a hard-fisted debate with someone about a course that you've never seen?  You mention that your boss may be too old to remember (that is a disrespectful comment) or played them poorly.  Take a step back for a minute, and be objective.  His position may be flawed somehow (I don't know because I have never been there nor studied the course that carefully)  but just where does your expertise trump his?  

How would you like your perspective characterized?  It is not based on experience, so what are we to make of your side of the argument?  

Respect, courtesy and an informed opinion is a good starting point for any discussion.

[wsmorrison]

"Would love to hear how old "too old to remember" is..."

Jim,

I'm sure Jordan will think that you are approaching the point of "too old" and that I crossed it long ago  

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Do you really think it is wise to get into a hard-fisted debate with someone about a course that you've never seen?  You mention that your boss may be too old to remember (that is a disrespectful comment) or played them poorly.  Take a step back for a minute, and be objective.  His position may be flawed somehow (I don't know because I have never been there nor studied the course that carefully)  but just where does your expertise trump his?  

How would you like your perspective characterized?  It is not based on experience, so what are we to make of your side of the argument?  

Respect, courtesy and an informed opinion is a good starting point for any discussion.

Wayne, when I say my boss is too old to remember, it is a joke we give him all the time, just fun, and same with playing the holes poorly.  We get into these debates all the time. When there is nothing to do we always come up with something to debate about...its fun and can be entertaining...and nobody ever backs out of a debate, and thus I had no choice but to defend the holes mentioned based on the knwoledge I have gained by reading about the holes.

I just wonder what GCA'ers think of these holes.
Honestly, I have heard before that #9 may be one of the greatest short par fours ever.
So, I just wonder if people here agree with my boss or feel that the holes mentioned are good, solid golf holes.
Just curious is all.

[kurt bowman]

Jordan,

Tell your boss I said you are right.LOL. IMHO holes 8 and 9 at CPC are two of the most interesting anywhere. In fact they are my favorite inland holes at CPC. The tee shot at #8 is blind over the dune, and you can bite of as much as you want to risk. The green is probably my favorite there, and on my top ten list of all greens I played. The 10th green of a course I just finished was inspired by the 8th at CPC. BTW I hit 3 wood on #8. If your boss is hitting 5 iron he is extremely long, or laying way back.

The 9th green at CPC is unreal, I am guessing the transition in that green from right to left is 6' or more. If we built that green today we would get killed, but it fits that hole well. Any long iron can work on this hole depending what yardage you desire for your second shot,but your tee shot must be accurate.

Cheers,

Kurt

[Jeff Doerr]

I think Jordan is agreeing with the treehouse. Here are the quotes from Cypress Description:

"The fact that the golfer walks right and up a dune as opposed to left and up a dune after leaving the 6th green speaks volumes as to how well routed the course is. While many architects might have seen the 7th hole, very few would have found the 8th with its requirement to hit over the shoulder of a dune. Fewer still would have had the courage to follow the 360 yard 8th hole with the 295 yard 9th. With a lesser architect, this three hole stretch would likely never have come into existence, which would have been a crushing blow to the quality of the course."  


"The drivable 295 yard 9th hole is in the class of the 10th at Riviera Country Club and the 12th at St. Andrews - there is no higher class. In a practice round when Cypress was still on the Crosby rota, the author's brother walked around Cypress with the Great Man. On the 9th tee, Nicklaus hit a six iron down the fairway. He asked his caddie for another ball, pulled out a three wood, and hit it to the front edge of the green. He turned to the group and said, 'I love the shot but I will never try it during the Crosby.'"


I think the good question is, why do we see #8 and #9 as Brilliant and some others are not impressed?

[Jordan Wall]

I think the good question is, why do we see #8 and #9 as Brilliant and some others are not impressed?

Exactly!


Kurt,

The boss didnt like #9 green at all, yet everyone else I talk to says the exact same as you about it..

[Adam Clayman]

While you're joking around tell your boss that he's a tasteless bum and his selfishness shines through when evaluating architechture based on his own performace. Then try to hold for fifteen seconds while he fires you.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Eight and nine are two of the great short par fives in golf.  They are different in nature and show that back to back shortish par fours can be interesting and worth doing.  I have only played Cypress once.  I bogeyed 8 after I hit the drive too far left and missed the green.  I couldn't wait to get to nine.  I took out my driver and tried to hit it up the right side of the green.  Low and behold I did and made three.

[Kalen Braley]

The problem with number 9 is that MacK did it all wrong.  The bunker that sits in front of the green just doesn't fit right.  It should be a pond with a nice little fountain in it, and then it would be worthy of world class distinction.  

[Garland Bayley]

I have no problem with Jordan debating these holes without him having seen them. However, his debate should contain statements like, Ran Morrissett wrote, Tom Doak says, and my opinion is lacking in experience, but it is formed from reading foremost experts in the field.

[Jordan Wall]

I have no problem with Jordan debating these holes without him having seen them. However, his debate should contain statements like, Ran Morrissett wrote, Tom Doak says, and my opinion is lacking in experience, but it is formed from reading foremost experts in the field.

I made note to let him know all my sources were from books I read.

Nothing like that CPC book by Shackleford!

[Michael Dugger]

I say go get 'em Jordan, don't take no crap.

People generally don't like that which is unfamiliar to them.

[Marty Bonnar]

Jordan,
seeing as like you're still at school, who is this mysterious 'Boss' guy?
I assume as you caddy he might be 'in the Biz'?

Please feel free to tell him from me that he's an EEDJIT!

EVERYONE knows that #8 is a ridiculously easy three-wood bounced down off and over the hill, a wedge to 15 feet and two putts for par, whilst #9 is a very, VERY hard hole which requires a duffed drive into the long grass in front of the tee, three off the tee - an easy three wood to the fairway at a point exactly where Michael's picture was taken, a duffed wedge from there long left to near the tenth tee, a fluffed wedge in the sand to about eight feet in front of you, then a BRILLIANT chip with about thirty feet of break to three foot and an easy one-putt for a glorious seven.

They are both brilliant, brilliant pieces of architectural/strategic design with deliciously natural routing and exquisitely tasteful use of the glorious landscape features in creating superb golf holes. I do hope you get to play it one day. It's a marvellous lesson!

FBD.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jordan,

There are no trees on the inside of the dog-leg on eight. There is a plethora of sand and scrubby little plants that make a recovery shot very, very difficult to bring off.

To hit a five iron off the tee he must be a very strong golfer.  Even when much younger, I took a driver off of the back tees and aimed for the white house on the other side of the second fairway and from the fronts, still took a three wood over the dune.

Just yesterday , thinking of years past, I walked back to the back markers on eight and thought what an incredible hole it is.

As for nine it can be played in a variety of ways but can ruin a round. Daniel Chopra played it best in a fun round before last years A.T.&T., he hit a three wood from the back of the tee and stopped the ball ten feet from the upper pin placement. I don't think he would attempt this in a tournament.

Bob

[Jordan Wall]

Bob,

What is the carry from the tee to the green, if one were indeed trying to go for the green?

[Jon Spaulding]

A long way for a 3 wood ....

[Jim Bearden]

IMHO they are two of thebest short 4's anywhere. The keys are the dunes and the greens. There is great dificulty in those two features. BTW during the Walker Cupin the early 80's I think it was Hal Sutton tried to drive 8 every time he played I don't know how many times he hit it and Tigers driven it several times.

[Jon Wiggett]

Wayne M,

although I agree with your points, at the same time I am sure Jordan knows what he his doing with regard to his boss.

I haven't played the holes so can't really comment but if you have then maybe you could do Wayne the courtesy of giving his question an answer as the good protocol you are touting requires. Touché amigo  

[Adam Clayman]

I seem to recall the ninth as being in the 285-289 range. It does go from dune top to anther much larger dune, so could actually be slightly uphill.
My guess would be a 295 yard carry to the back left and maybe 280 to the front right

One of the caddies did ace the hole once. Not sure if anyone else ever has, but, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had.

[Thomas_Brown]

IMO - The carry to the front plays is about 265-270.
It's a shorter play than the first tee shot at Riviera and most tour pros hit 3 wood off of that tee now.  I think the wind usually helps the shot on the 9th if someone can shape the ball appropriately.  CPC 8 & 9 are masterpieces.

Having said that, Bob Huntley knows both CPC & Riv. much more than I.

[Mark_Fine]

I played Cypress two weeks ago.  It is not even worth arguing just how good both these holes are.  They are exceptional for all kinds of reasons.  Driving #8 is quite a feat but it could be done.  I'd recommend having a caddie do some spotting if you are going to go for it.  #9 is so tempting.  I two putted from the front fringe for birdie this past visit.  The pin was down in front otherwise I would have had to get creative.  I usually hit driver and take my chances with the bunker.  Just don't miss it right!

 

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob,

What is the carry from the tee to the green, if one were indeed trying to go for the green?
?quote]


Jordan.

About 275 to the front pin position..

Bob

[Terry Thornton]

I was fortunate enough to play Cypress Point about 18 months ago. Upon my return to Australia when quizzed about the course by a couple of friends I suggested that it would be worth the trip across the Pacific just to play #8 and #9. I'm obviously easily pleased.