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TEPaul

Hardest setup you've ever played?
« on: August 30, 2002, 11:27:24 AM »
To follow the other course setup thread--

What's the hardest course setup you ever played? (not course necessarily just set-up)

And why do you think it was so hard?

Did you like it?

Would you like to play it that way again?

Did it teach you anythng about golf, strategy or architecture?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2002, 11:32:25 AM »
Tom:

Are we supposed to net out weather?  Often the setup is too hard for me under the conditions.  Before I think I need to know if I should include a windy day at Sand Hills, blustery conditions at Dornoch, or frozen ground at Portrush.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick_Noyes

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2002, 11:37:25 AM »
I had the opportunity to play Forest Oaks the week after the Greater Greensboro Chrysler Classic.  The course was still in what I would call tournament mode.  The fairways were still narrow and the rough probably a little higher since it had not been mowed since the tourn.  I gained a new respect for Rocco.  The only short irons I hit all day were to gouge it out of the rough.  Toughest damn 90 I ever shot.  No penalties, no lost ball.  I hit the thing 90 times.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2002, 11:42:14 AM »
John:

Let's remove all weather factors and such and even make it a "fair weather" hardest course set-up--that would probably highlight the overall set-up point better!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

allysmith

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2002, 11:48:44 AM »
Tom,

I was fortunate enough to play Carnoustie 2 days after THAT open.

Carnoustie is probably the hardest course in the world any way but with the Hay consession still up for grabs it was a monster beyond belief.

Playing 10, 11 and 12 became sheer hard work. The pleasure of attempted shot making dissapeared and quite frankly any thrill of playing a major course went with it.

The course was just too difficult, and the pleasure factor was very low.

I firmly beleive that Paul Lawrie's final round in the Open was one of the best ever played. I have long argued that it was a better score than Duvals 59 that year.

Lessons learned were limited due to my
a:Inability to digest the strain on my game
b:Disapointment at playing a course which was just too hard

As a footnote I played Carnoustie again this year and while still very difficult it was not 'impossible'. The pleasure factor rose immeasurably and the mistique of the course returned. Icould easily see why Ben Hogan found the thrill in winning on such a special golf course
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2002, 12:15:49 PM »
I have to agree with John Conley's comments...do we include weather? I played an early season round at Blackwolf Run a few years ago...35 degrees, light wind, and drizzling the entire day.  The ocurse HAD to play between 300-400 yards longer becuase there was NO ROLL at all that day, and plugged lies everywhere.

I bet the course is hard enough without distractions such as these, but given those specific conditions, it was brutal.

As a side note, once a year here at home, we have a Saturday game called "Hard Course Set-Up" where all the tees are moved back, pins are tucked, greens are super slick, and rough is high.  Having only been at the club three years, I have yet to play in the event, but it is always a popular one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

TEPaul

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2002, 12:20:58 PM »
Evan:

Not hard conditions--only hard "set-up"--like a tournament setup. Maybe not that many golfers have actually played a course "setup hard" for a good tournament.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2002, 12:40:46 PM »
The Hugh Wilson Invitational at Merion a couple of years ago. The rumor among the players was that Merion was trying to prove to the USGA that the course was still worthy of hosting a U.S. Open, so they were using our tournament as a proving ground to show the USGA how difficult the course could play. The greens were firm and rolling at least a 13-14 on the stimpmeter (I’ve played in USGA events where the greens were fast, but this was the only time I had to lag all of my uphill putts) and the pins were in tough spots. On the sixth hole during the first round, I hit a 5-iron to about two feet from the back hole location, from where I had to play over a foot of break. I still missed it below the hole and it didn’t stop until it rolled eight feet away (thank goodness I made that one!). The rough was not even that high (just a few inches), but it took the spin off of the ball and made it very tough to keep it on the green. The winning score for the three rounds that week in good weather was +16, which was turned in by Danny Green, one of the top amateur golfers in the country. I shot 82-81 (par 70) and was on my way to mid-80's in the third round when I holed out incorrectly on a hole and was DQ'd (I played in anyway). It was playing so tough that it really took much of the fun out of competing there. My game was not in good shape coming in, but that' s irrelevant to the story.

Examples of what went on:
1. On both the 12th and 15th greens, people were putting the ball off the green when the pin was on the left side. When the pin was back left on 15, unless you were directly under the hole, a missed putt would roll 8 to 10 to 20 feet below the hole.
2. On the 3rd and 15th greens, when the pin was right there was no way to get the ball anywhere near the hole; if you made the carry the ball would bounce over, and if you played left you'd have a long hilly putt. #3 was a three-iron from the back tee; the one ball I saw stop on #3 one of the days was when it hit the wicker basket on the fly and bounded into the rough not far from the pin.
3. The front-right pin on #8 was untouchable; you were just trying to spin it enough to keep it somewhere on the green, but not getting too cute because front bunker was dead.
4. The farthest right the pin was on #5 was center of the green, and it very hard to keep the ball anywhere but bottom-left of the green (many times the ball just wouldn't stop until it got there).

But I want to stress that I don't think the conditions were unfair; I just think they were un-fun. People were getting embarrassed out there. The novelty of it made it interesting, though, and for match play it would have been very interesting.

Did it teach me anything about golf, strategy or architecture? It taught me to prepare better for my tournaments! :) At the time, I felt like I really had no strategy to employ--just get it anywhere in the fairway (didn't care where, I just wanted a shot in to the green), anywhere on the green, and try to make a good two-putt. I didn't really try to shape any shots or get cute with anything, because most of the time mistakes meant bogey at best. But that may have been the state of my game as well as the course setup.

I'd like to try those conditions again to see how far my game has progressed since then, but day-to-day or week-to-week I'll pass.

For me, the setup didn't take away the greatness of the course, but one comment to the committee that I'll remember from one of the players was: "You took this beautiful lady (Merion) and turned her into a whore." :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Farrell

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2002, 12:44:00 PM »
I think it was 1976 when I played with my pro, Don Vallario, in the pro-am to the NJ State Open at Plainfield CC. There hadn't been rain for a long time and the course was baked and hard, coupled with 98 degree temperatures and 100% humidity the day of the pro-am, NO KIDDING.

Being a Ross design, Plainfield isn't easy to begin with with. This day it was impossible!!!! If ever the advice of don't be above the pin came into play, this was the day. Toughest competitive round I ever played, and I think that has to be part of the equation here. If you're playing from the Whites in a $2 OR $5 Nassau it's not the same.

Played Carnoustie in 40 MPH winds and would rather do that than face Plainfield in these conditions.

BF
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2002, 01:15:42 PM »
1998 about 3-weeks before the US Open at Olympic Lake.  It was a damp May (it rarely rains in the summer in SF) so the rough was extra long (the mowed it the next week DOWN to 4-6 inches) and the fairways were not nearly as hard and fast as the played during the open.

The greens were pretty quick, although not like 18 on was on Saturday of the Open.

Now Olympic has enough holes with long-long-irons as second shots (4, 5, 9, 11, 14, 17) that were playing very difficult.  If you missed a fairway, you had to wedge out and still have a longer-than-you-want third with a minimal chance at par.  In fact the only par I made after missing the fairway was on #6, when I hit my tee ball into the bunker.

In fact, I still don't understand how Gib says he can run it up onto the green on #2 ... the fairway cants left, its kind of a false front (when the greens are slick), and the green goes in a left front to back right angle ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Ken_Cotner

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2002, 01:19:55 PM »
Hardest setup?  My home course last time I played -- totally unreceptive to my entire repertoire!

Only fair hole was #8 -- a par-5 which spit my pushed-faded driver out of the trees onto the fairway, then spit my pull-hooked 4-wood out of the trees onto the fairway, then rewarded my toe-hook 4-iron with a 40-foot birdie putt, which I of course made.  4 "junks" -- two barkies, a birdie, and a "poley".

Sorry for the aside,
KC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2002, 01:25:45 PM »
Played Pebble a few days after the '82 open.  Hit 4w/9 iron to 15 feet or so to a back left pin position on the 1st, but in the rough. Was lucky to walk away with a 6.  It went downhill from there...........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2002, 01:27:53 PM »
I played TCC, on the open composite course about 2 months before the Ryder Cup, and we played all of the holes to the par the players would. How they can play #12 as a par 4 is mind-boggling. If you don't nail your drive, you have to lay back short of the hill, leaving a bear of a shot in. It's dicey even if you lay up on the top of the hill. As for trying to get your shot on the green in 2? forget it.

More recently, I played John's Island West, the same week they had the Open qualifying and it was brutal. They had the greens running at 11.5 (when measured at 6:30 in the a.m.), you can imagine what they were rolling by the end of the dry sunny days. Coupled with the contour of the greens, it was really tough putting, and even tougher trying to get approaches close to pins, or even stopping on the green surface, for that matter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2002, 01:28:23 PM »
Albany Country Club! Years (yikes--MANY) years ago, in a college tournament. They had the greens set at speeds i'd never seen before, some of them that were sloped like #18 Olympic Lake at the last US Open and were just brutal--putt up, miss and ball rolls back 6-7 feet down the hill. Unfair? Add high rough and playing from the tips of the runway RTJ tees back in the day of persimmon and soft golf balls and it was a VERY long day. Obviously so if I can still remember it...

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Ginger_Beer

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2002, 01:58:41 PM »
At my home club we have a silly late-season tournament called the Chili-Bowl.  All of the greens are crowned at the edges.  Almost all of the pins are placed next to the watersheds:  if you miss your putt, you're chipping.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Allan Long

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2002, 03:29:37 PM »
The setup that I really remember was at Kingsmill (River) two years ago. I played 10 days before the Michelob Championship was to be held, and the rough was brutal. I had heard that the course was not that difficult, but that day balls hit into the rough were going straight down, and it was hard to find them-let alone hit them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

TEPaul

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2002, 06:06:41 PM »
ChrisB;

Good description of the Hugh Wilson a couple of years ago. I didn't play in it (they threw me out of that tournament a while ago) but from everything I heard about that Wilson, it most definitely could be the hardest setup I ever heard of!! One of the caddies over there told me his guy, a very good player from the Boston area had 44 putts in one of the rounds!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2002, 07:36:55 PM »
There are a few, but one that personally comes to mind is the 1984 US Public Links sectional qualifying at Bethpage Black. There were 150 players for 5 spots to go to the national tournament in Spokane at Indian Canyon that year.

The deal with the Met section is simple: you only play the full 36 qualifying holes if you break 85 in the first round. How many players broke 85? Only 38 and only 8 broke 80.

I was really fortunate because I finished second in the event at 153, however, the horror stories and train wrecks were something to behold. What many saw at this year's Open was pale in comparison to the utter SAVAGE NATURE of the rough. There were limited forecaddies and if they didn't see the ball HIT EXACTLY where it landed it was swallowed whole like a swimmer in Jaws!

The cut came at 156 with a few players battling for the final spot. The only player who broke 150 was Mark Mielke -- a top flight local pro on Long Island today. If memory serves only a dozen people actually brokle 160. You mention this to others at the national tournament and they had no idea (until this year's Open) the nature of the Black and what can happen when things go sour -- they go B-L-A-C-K in a hurry!

So many players had played inferior taxpayer layouts or scaled down upscale public layouts and were completely unprepared for the relentless nature of the course. Like Jaws the Black inflicted MAJOR PAIN on the most simplest of mistakes. In addition, the Black had the kind of silica based sand that made it quite difficult to get near your ball in a bunker if it finished on an upslope.

The weather was never an issue -- the Black was a major league beast and every shot was fraught with great uncertainty. I never saw that many people shaking as they put the tee peg into the ground.

The Black had a wild untamed look that has become a bit more refined for my tastes today. I only hope that with a futre Open such a look returns. I know it's something that David Fay has mentioned. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dennis_Harwood

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2002, 11:40:03 PM »
TE--

That is a great question--I take it to ask what is the hardest SETUP, not necessarily the hardest course ever played--

My answer would be Shinnecock Hills about a month before the Open-- I had played the course before, and if you were keeping score it would have read Shinnecock 7, Dennis 0, Although there had been some close between myself and the course in the prior 7; number 8 was different--it was not even a contest--had it been a prize fight they would have stopped it in the first round--

Like many of the posts above, the feature that stood out was the rough (it was probably longer than the US Open since it had reached its most lush and long condition and they were just starting to "groom" and dry out the course-)-

I could only imagine the increased difficulty which would come with harder, faster greens, hard fairways and wind(which was rather mild the day I played)--

What I learned was that certainly I, and I doubt most, appreciate how really difficult a US Open set up is, and I only got a peek at what the final set up would be--And that a course that I had found difficult with an everyday set up became almost unplayable for my game under Open conditions--
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2002, 03:26:13 AM »
I think the primary reason I posted this particular topic is I do think ultimately if good examples can be given and discussed intricately it might show a particular aspect of very good architecture, and very great architecture that might be little known and little thought of.

And that would be the ability of very good architecture to be extremely "elastic" with "setup" alone! This is something that less than good architecture isn't capable of, because less than very good and very potential architecture can go over the top or become far too obvious in its attempt to test and challenge when "setup" hard.

But the best of them, in my opinion, can create an enormous spectrum in their architectural (and maintenance meld) abilities to exact certain "tolls" or not (depending on which end of the spectrum they are setup) on players, and even very good but unaware players in subtle ways.

The very best of them can do this sometimes almost invisibly. In other words, it's hard to pick up on by just looking at them!

And in this way, some of the best I've seen have done it without even the use of much rough! When you get to this level of really great architecture that shows itself really well with a hard setup (sometimes I call it a high intensity level) rough takes on an aspect of almost a cheap trick or too obvious a setup device.

It would be very interesting to analyze how and how well the great architecture of the world can make players think, inspire them to succeed or fail in subtle ways without much rough!

When you get to that point I think it can weed out what's good and what's really great--architecturally. That's when the extreme "elasticity", the width of the spectrum of playability of really great architecture begins to show itself, in my opinion!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2002, 03:39:42 AM »
Tom, you have hit on one of the most important qualities that makes a course great IMO. Level 6-8 intensity everyday, Level 9-10 with quick sutle changes within days, weather permiting. This can only be done with the best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2002, 11:45:16 AM »
2 days after the 1995 Open Championship at St. Andrews.  Remember, the winning score was 282 (Daly, Rocca) which is high by modern standards at the Old Course.  Mean rough, fast as hell, and as windy as any day as could be tolerated for golf.  Pins, tees, grandstands and the like were all still in their Sunday placements.  Truly incredible and something I will never forget for the rest of my life.

Jeff F.

BTW, I made an 8 on the Road Hole (#17) and shot 76.  Maybe one of the best rounds I ever played.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
#nowhitebelt

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2002, 04:45:24 PM »
ChrisB,

I will 2nd the nomination for Merion two years ago. I also played in the event...greens were brick hard and lightning fast...brutal would be an understatement.

One of the best lines I have heard at a tourney was spoken during the formal dinner on the terrace after the second round:  During dinner while it was fairly quiet, there was some road work being done on the street to the left of #14, after a loud jackhammer stopped, someone shouted out..."they must be changing the cups for the final round!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2002, 06:39:36 PM »
Jamie:

THAT'S REALLY GOOD! Must have brought the house down with laughter!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardest setup you've ever played?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2002, 01:16:43 PM »
Tom, Jamie, that line is better than really good, it is a Doak "10", with any luck some of us might get to use it again, with proper attribution of course :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »