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Mike_Young

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2007, 11:32:58 PM »
ASGCA, a fraternity? Ummmmm.

I think that may be lessening the importance and reach of golf architecture's largest and most influential organization. Many years ago I think there was some validity to this description. However, in the past few decades ASGCA has grown to 170+ and we now include associates in offices and loads of independent designers. The requirements for membership are very strict and the process is very serious. I think that aspect, plus our many endeavors, significantly alters it from a "fraternity" to a professional organization.
Forrest,
I am not saying there is anything wrong with fraternities.....most of the guys i know in there are nice guys..I could probably agree with you as to it being a professional organization if it did not stress "peer review" so much....I have seen their "peer review" first hand....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2007, 10:30:43 AM »
Chris — One day you might get over your uncomfortableness with ASGCA Ross Tartan Jackets. You might think of it as overcoming the apprehension to say "I love you" to a father, not be worried about what others think in a crowd, wearing a lavender shirt, etc.  When you consider that Mr. Ross was the patron saint of the ASGCA, it means a lot to those of us who have been accepted as members.

There are several well qualified golf designers who are not ASGCA members. My opinion (personal and professional) is that these guys or gals would benefit — and so would their clients — from the connections and associations that ASGCA facilitates. As we have seen in the past few years, many are now applying for membership — perhaps also bypassing any previous hang-ups about "belonging" or "membership" that may have been buzzing around in their heads.

For the record — USGA greens specifications are pretty much a written response with general conditions as their main attribute. The science is isolated to regions — it would be like saying Tylenol works for any type of headach. Untrue.



Yeah, I guess I am not there yet :)  When that magic moment happens I'll try and pair up a lavender shirt with a plaid jacket ;D  If I get my courage up, I could raid one of my senior member's lockers right now ;D

I guess if I were a little more mature I would see how the Ross Tartan blazer is a nice way to honor Donald Ross--I was given a copy of "Presidents I have Known" and it certainly seems appropriate to honor him in some way.  How about a navy blazer with a Ross Tartan pin :o

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2007, 10:47:38 AM »
Mike — Peer review is part of both ASLA and AIA...not to mention virtually every other professional affiliation that involves licensing and/or registration. The difference in ASGCA is that you are dealing with a very, very small body. Frankly, I think this is better than the "lost in the crowd" peer review one can get in a larger organization.

And...peer review is just one element of ASGCA application and the membership process. Having been a sponsor and evaluator of new members and their work, I estimate the "peer review" percentage of membership to be about 15%. The balance is a step-by-step process to meet requirements, provide examples of work and to obtain paperwork from clients acknowledging prior work involvement.

- - -

Lavender and Ross Tartan...? Seems I've seen that.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 10:48:01 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Joe Hancock

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2007, 10:54:08 AM »
I don't put much into this whole life cycle thing...then again, I'm not into heavy irrigation either......

I wonder if there's any connection between the two?.... ::)

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2007, 11:27:04 AM »
Joe,

Its not really a question of being in to it or not - aging just happens whether we like it or not.  Life cycle is just another way of saying that you wake up one day and realize that certain parts of your golf course need replacing.  It counters the idea that the course is "natural" and should be self sustaining, which isn't an entirely correct perception.

I suppose that using your irrigation system less would prolong its life though, but the real issue is how well designed it is. If water velocities in the pipe remain below 4.5 feet per second, the pipe connections could virtually last forever, and of course, the PVC will, too.  At higher velocities, the connections start pulling slowly apart.  At 7FPS, they start pulling apart right away!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2007, 11:34:29 AM »
I agree with Forrest - what group (professional society or otherwise) doesn't have some kind of peer review process for admission?  

Forrest may be right in that it just seems more onerous, but I think ASGCA's is higher than ASLA, which (its been a while and may have changed) requires one or two sponsors and a degree in LA.  I am not even sure a job in the profession is required, but then, I think most LA's are more often between jobs anyway.

Having been involved in the process as membership chair and otherwise, we have made great strides in getting rid of any pettiness and in making the whole process as fair and streamlined as can be, consistent with our long standing criteria for acceptance.

But, the membership process wasn't really the point of Forrest's complaint about being dismissivley called a "fraternity."  As a group, we have provided both members and the golf community some very tangible benefits, all in line with professional societies in related professions.  If we provide less, its because the funds of a 170 member group can't match the 17,000 members of AIA or ASLA (or whatever their membership roles consist of)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2007, 11:41:05 AM »
Sorry, Jeff....I went too obscure I suppose.

My irrigation reference was entirely aimed at dirt features.....the land. The irrigation system itself is a certain replacement item.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2007, 02:34:35 PM »
I'm just curious if anyone is aware of a USGA green which has lasted 30 years, since Mr. Marzolf's estimation of their life span is "15-30 years", as opposed to 15 for a "sand based" green.

I am aware of numerous sand-based or push-up greens which are 50-100 years old and have never been rebuilt.  San Francisco Golf Club's greens lasted from the 1920s until 2004, and the only reason we rebuilt them was because of nematodes, they still drained and functioned perfectly.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2007, 05:04:11 PM »
I'm just curious if anyone is aware of a USGA green which has lasted 30 years, since Mr. Marzolf's estimation of their life span is "15-30 years", as opposed to 15 for a "sand based" green.

I am aware of numerous sand-based or push-up greens which are 50-100 years old and have never been rebuilt.  San Francisco Golf Club's greens lasted from the 1920s until 2004, and the only reason we rebuilt them was because of nematodes, they still drained and functioned perfectly.
Agree, how old are the 'sand' greens on most Scottish links courses?
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Ryan Farrow

Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2007, 08:50:05 PM »
I'm just curious if anyone is aware of a USGA green which has lasted 30 years, since Mr. Marzolf's estimation of their life span is "15-30 years", as opposed to 15 for a "sand based" green.

I am aware of numerous sand-based or push-up greens which are 50-100 years old and have never been rebuilt.  San Francisco Golf Club's greens lasted from the 1920s until 2004, and the only reason we rebuilt them was because of nematodes, they still drained and functioned perfectly.

Even more suprising was the asbence of fairway ramps from the list.

Honestly the "lifespan list" is a must have and should be framed and put up in everyone’s office. The comedic value is priceless.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2007, 02:09:00 AM »
Tom Doak,

I have seen some supers who have questioned whether to rebuild greens when resurfacing and doing the relevant tests, with the results being that their USGA greens are still the same funtioning as they were when built.  I think that was the original thinking on sand based greens - real world experience showed that sand was the best growing medium for fine turf, and in theory, it doesn't compact or change characteristics.

I am not entirely sure about the life span differences of USGA and California greens, frankly. I did see some of the USGA research indicating that the gravel layer did assist in faster, more even drainage, and its possible that all the water sitting on the subsoils in a California green eventually sour the whole area, but that is a guess.


Ryan,

Please tell me on what professional experience you base your statement about the comedic value?  As above, I am not 100% sure on green differences, but I do know that many greens wear out in time, and the other aspects are about dead on, based on my experience as a gca.

If anyone wants to know why the industry poo poohs this site, its statements like Ryans, where a 21 year old can make a hip, condescending counterculture statement, with little basis in fact, and we can almost hear the knowing nods of the "faithful" here agree that no one who has done anything in the real world could possibly do it right, even after millions of dollars and good scientific minds studying things for decades.  

Of course, we can all name an exception, but usually that's just what it is - an exception and often one that proves the rule. Of course, the USGA method isn't particular improvement on a sandy site, and in fact, many Palm Srpings and Florida golf courses are grassed after pushing the sand around a lot.

Just my $0.02

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ryan Farrow

Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2007, 04:45:21 AM »
Jeff, may we look no further than Oakmont where the greens have been pretty much untouched for over 100 years, w/o subsurface drainage. They have finally put in drainage about two or three years ago which should keep the greens going for at least another century or two. 15-30 years please explain how the ASGCA came up with that figure?

I don't have the list in front of me now but there were some other questionable life spans on there, as well as some very reasonable ones, but at 30 + G's a pop for USGA greens I feel the "restoration"/"renovation" agenda is being pushed really hard with this figure. It would also be interesting to know who exactly these check sheets are intended for, architects, supers, club owners?

Or maybe it is just my conspiratorial mind that is getting the best of me.


Jeff, when you build your clients a new golf course do you expect the greens to only last 15-30 years? Is this something you let the client know up-front? Make an agreement that you will be back in that time to fix any problems?

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2007, 07:11:24 AM »
There was a question about the value of a perched water table earlier.

In the old days greens were built with the materials at hand, and as a result greens differed. It was part of the golfer's job to learn the greens and take their different conditions into account. Different conditions from hole to hole, and within a green itself.

The perched water table (doesn't necessarily have to be USGA, but a any two-layer or three-layer green with a gravel blanket) suspends the rootzone above the fill pad, and allows the rootzone to drain excess water through the gravel layer. This helps make greens consistent when the fill pads are of differing materials from hole-to-hole or when they are not homogeneous within a green. Building pure sand greens without a homogeneous foundation from green to green or within a green can result in greens behaving inconsistently. One soil engineer told me...with a laugh...that greens should be built equally good or equally bad, that way the management practices and playability will be consistent...and in the latter case there will be fewer complaints.

That's the one benefit I can see for a perched water table. I've built greens sans drainage, and wasn't the most excited at the time when the soil engineer stated we could do so. In fact we had to install a 10cm (4 inch) layer of silty sand to slow down the percolation to the native sand under the greens. The greens are 10 years old and have functioned well. The club doesn't get them more than 9 on the stimpmeter, and never will. At another course, one that was to be provisional, we pushed up native sand (no drainage) and 8 years later they continue to perform well too.

Paul Cowley: Interesting to hear you will be doing greens without drainage.

What other decent courses have done this in the US recently? Also interesting to read that Oakmont survived without drainage for about a century...with clay soil too...or?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 09:35:51 AM by Tony Ristola »

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2007, 08:19:05 AM »
I do think it's important to note that just because a green is 100 years old does not mean nothing has been done or that the green has been "untouched" You can bet that smile drains have been added, or that the club is on a deep tine program, or maybe they've been drilled and filled, all of these things are done to get air into the rootzone and water out.
So just because it's a push up that has lasted a long time without being rebuilt doesn't mean everything has been bulletproof the entire time. The clubs often mentioned here for having long term soil greens are also those that have had the resources and the expertise to make them work.

To me the biggest difference between USGA greens and a push up is the USGA green does tend to degrade over time but the push ups, for the most part, get better over time. You take a heavier soil, say a sandy loam, or a sand that is too fine or widely graded to meet spec and build a green and it's usually easier to grow in because it has some water and nutrient holding capacity. The USGA spec greens tend to be more sterile, and even if you add a decent amount of peat, they perc like crazy and sometimes they are tough to manage when they are very young. The soil green gets topdressed with clean sand, gets aerified, and over time the perc rates and aeration porosity may get better. While the USGA green usually starts a long slow build up of organic material and over time starts to perc less and less.
I just think the degree of change over time is larger in a USGA then it is in a soil push up.
In no way am I suggesting that you should push up a green with lousy soil. But if you've got some good material, and especially if you've got enough to not only build the green but the surrounds and approaches as well, then I do think push ups are a viable alternative in the right environment. Would I do it in the south or transition area if I'm growing bent and I know the green has to perform at a high level...no way. But under the right conditions I think it is the preferred method...at least in my book.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2007, 09:32:38 AM »
Don,

I agree that Oakmont surely did patch up work to their greens, just as any club does for their fairways and bunkers, or any part of their course...as problems become evident. Clubs charging serious coin don't have that luxury today. Litigationland USA surely makes many a sphincter tighten at the thought of going with less than the "best". USGA greens have become a marketing angle, just like signature designers.

Your take on the performance of USGA greens vs. push-ups in the right environment is an interesting one. It is a post that I'm going to catalog and use in the future. Any superintendents out there second Don's claim?

The life cycle predictions of greens I found a wee bit amusing. One benefit is they are good for tax write-offs for 30-years.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 09:33:18 AM by Tony Ristola »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2007, 09:49:40 AM »
Don,

All good points, and of course, the USGA green section was trying to find a way to build greens in the vast majority of cases in the US where those conditions don't exist. As has been noted, in a country as climatologically and agronomically varied as the US of A, they (and supers and architects) have found that one size fits all hasn't worked.   Overall, however, the USGA method has worked well for a lot of people.  

From memory, I think there was also hope, based on the properties of sand, that they would never wear out and would never need aerification, since sand theoretically doesn't compact, neither of which has proven true in all cases.  I think that other elements - wind and shoe born native soils (like silts and clays), irrigation borne contaminents and thatch can affect the greens makeup over time and must be removed through heavy aerification, and in many cases, eventually removed through rebuilding.

Certainly, it varies everywhere from never needs rebuilding (the original goal) and as little as 15 years.  Also, the USGA has found that most greens probably need to be re-turfed every 15 years or so, due to contamination, newer varieties being desired, etc. although this might not require rebuilding all or any of the soilt structure.

Ryan,

As Don suggests, others could probably tell you more about whether the Oakmont greens have never had any modifications, but I suspect your premise and "exception" is probably wrong in a technical sense.

In the vast majority of courses with push up greens that I have seen, the green base has been modified over the years by core aerifying, with core removal and replacement with sand in the holes.  With enough aerifications every year, eventually, every sq. in. of green gets a sand core, and together with heavy topdressing, gets a gradually increased sand content, and the ability to claim that the original greens have never been rebuilt.  Of course, they don't do it to claim the greens are original, they do it because they don't want the course out of play, or as you suggest, to spend the $30K.

If you read any of my posts carefully, you actually already have the answers to your other questions, but I fail to read an answer to mine.  On what do you base your opinion of "comedic" nature of the ASGCA list or your new assertion of "questionable" life spans, other than your belief in conspiracies? ;)

I did allow that yes, there is a function of selling the need to remodel in that document.  That doesn't mean it isn't true, or that superintendents don't fight a very real battle of being asked to provide ever higher condtions with basically non existent infrastructure as tools.  Instead of providing the tools, they simply fire the super, figuring he isn't any good, when that is not the case.  We are not trying to manufacture remodeling business where it isn't necessary, we are trying to increase awareness of what we see in the field on a repeated bases.

Moreover, when we go to clubs, we are painfully aware that most will do anything to avoid spending $30K (which is actually too conservative in todays dollars) to rebuild greens if they don't have to. They just can't afford it.  If this document does cause someone to reconsider, it is probably helping them make the right decision 99% of the time.  In other cases, it surely is a value judgement on the parts of the course, but this information should be figured in.

In that document, ASGCA stresses that it might be better to spend a little over time to avoid having to rebuild an entire course.  While I believe that having an architect on board to consult on even rebuilding cart paths - why not put them in the best locations if you are rebuilding them anyway because of breakage - on many, many of these small, non-design changes, an architect is not technically required, and often not used.

BTW, the USGA reps I have seen in the field also try to find ways to avoid rebuilding completely to USGA specs, if at all possible.  But, if rebuilding is necessary based on soil tests, etc. you can bet they do push the extra cost of USGA over California greens.  But, after investing millions in research, I think we can give them credit for truly believing in their method - and their revised specs in 2004 do allow for wider latitude - basically getting away from the one size fits all, at least to a degree.

We do discuss with our clients a lot of non-design operational issues, and usually do touch on the fact that golf courses often do need to be rebuilt over time.  Granted, its not the biggest topic of discussion, but we do stress that they will be making small improvements to things missed in construction - new drainage areas seem to pop up all the time, for example.  drainage is an ongoing battle for superintendents.  And no, our contracts do NOT have any stipulation that we will be back at any time to redo the course.  

JN tried to get that in his early contracts, but I think after time, the Owners simply refused it.  After all, a housing developer knows he probably won't own the course in 15 years, so how can he sign such a contract?

So, basically, I (and I suspect the rest of the ASGCA and USGA, but I can check and get back to you if you like) kind of resent the tone of your comments, because they are just so far off base as to be "comedic."  

When Tom Marzolf put that list together, he drew on his experience of literally hundreds of his own courses, and polled several other architects to get their collective experiences, so literally, its based on consulting at thousands of golf courses of nearly every description.  Of course, its an "average" and individual courses may vary, but the idea that those built elements of the golf course wear out - and generally that the more you cut corners up front the faster they do wear out - is as true as can be overall.

Once again, how many courses have you been responsible for the design, maintenance, or infrastrcture for to form your opinion and then publicly cast dispersions on the efforts of many hundreds of professional gcas, agronomists and superintendents?  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2007, 10:11:27 AM »
One further curve ball in the discussion. Aren't USGA spec'd greens more likely where they will have consistently low cutting and super-quick putting surfaces?

If the greens were going to run 8 on the stimpmeter 99% of the time, cut to 3/16ths... thereby allowing for a stronger healthier stand of grass instead of Emergency Ward stuff, aren't USGA greens less relevant? And let's be somewhat specific about climate. Say the Pacific North West. Cool, sometimes dry periods, winters with 6 inches of rain per month during the winter months.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 10:12:09 AM by Tony Ristola »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2007, 10:53:40 AM »
Tony,

Good points.  While I haven't worked in the Pacific NW, I know that up in MN, the low humidity and temps made us figure that we might use native sands (turns out we didn't but we also didn't do full USGA)

All of those site specific factors should be evaluated to determine whether the expense of a USGA green is truly necessary.  To relate back to an earlier question, I guess no one will know until 15-30 years later if the construction method was best, long term, unless there is some kind of catastrophic failure.  That "I'll be dead before they know it was a mistake" kind of thinking is probably more prevalent than "Lets overspend on the USGA greens" line of thinking.

But, that's just my experience in the field.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Cupit

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2007, 11:38:12 AM »

The life cycle predictions of greens I found a wee bit amusing. One benefit is they are good for tax write-offs for 30-years.

I am pretty sure IRS guidelines for depreciation of greens have little to do with ASGCA life cycle guidelines.  I can't remember off hand my dep. schedule, but as an owner, I'd rather depreciate that item more rapidly than 30 years!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2007, 02:26:29 PM »
Tony,

The IRS does allow depreciation for greens construction, recognizing (after lobbying by golf course owners) that they are just as built as a building for which they allow depreciation.

Chris is right - in most cases you set your depreciation to the approximate life span of the item, or perhaps a bit less.  I suspect if the IRS sets the depreciation schedule for greens, they do it to the USGA mimimum time length, but I could be wrong.

I am no expert, but I don't think the tax implications would be anything more than frosting on the cake to a course when setting its capital improvements budget.  If you spent $60K on a green, and depreciated it over 15 years, you might get 25% of that $4000 value per year off on your taxes, or about $1000 per year.  That's not enough to offset the cost by much.  Of course, every little bit helps.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2007, 03:31:23 PM »
Tony asked,

"What other decent courses have done this [native soil greens with no drainage] in the US recently?"

I'll volunteer Pacific Dunes, Lost Dunes, and Ballyneal as decent.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2007, 03:42:02 PM »
Jeff:

Please don't beat up on my interns.  :)  Ryan has no experience designing anything yet, but he did work at Oakmont last summer, so he knows something about greens.  Of course, I won't meet Ryan until next week, so don't blame his comments on my influence, either.

You seem extremely defensive about the subject of rebuilding greens, and you are exaggerating everyone's reluctance to suggest them in a remodel.  In particular, we've had MANY cases of the USGA Green Section reps recommending that clubs where we consult totally rebuild their greens, even when we didn't think it was necessary.

Since you have much more experience with greens construction than Ryan, do you have any idea about the question I posed earlier?  Where did Mr. Marzolf come up with his thirty-year potential life span for a USGA green?  How many USGA greens have you seen that lasted that long?  The original nine at Crooked Stick lasted twenty years; that's the longest I've seen.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2007, 04:29:18 PM »
Tom,

For you, I will stop beating up your interns, if you promise to keep them in line after they get to work for you. ;)  I am not defensive about the need to make every decision an informed on based on site specific study.  But I will defend a nice effort to educate by ASGCA.

I agree that the USGA guys have and will recommend rebuilding. In so many cases its a value judgement, and a question of just how much the soil has "worn out" and to what degree it is salvageable.  It IS easy to go overboard towards total rebuilding, since its generally the least expensive to do the RIGHT thing in any situation the first time.  I have seen clubs try the patch work fixes a few times before going to rebuilding, thus spending more time and more money to avoid the potentially more expensive USGA solution  So, it happens all ways, and anyone could give a few examples of marginal decisions made by golf courses!

I don't know where Tom came up with 15-30 years but I will ask him and get back.  

Frankly, I figured the criticisms were that ASGCA was posting too short a time frame, in order to solicit more work.  I doubted that Ryan would find it comedic that a club had the good fortune to have greens last longer than they expected, would he?    There is no reason not to expand the outside fringes of a broad guideline a bit just to cover the bases, is there?  Who knows, some green built in the last few years to the latest spec might very well last over 30 years, and we wouldn't want any egg on the face.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2007, 08:21:18 PM »
Jeff:

My problems were two:

1.  The chart implies that a USGA green may be twice as good as a sand-based green, without any real back-up, which makes everyone more likely to build a USGA green even if not necessary.

2.  The idea that greens have to be rebuilt every 15-30 years does make golf course architects (and not just the ASGCA) seem self-serving.  Twenty years ago there was no expectation that a club should have to rebuild their greens every so often.  What's changed?  We're cutting greens much lower and stressing them out and causing them to fail.  I feel that we are learning the wrong lesson from that, if it's labeled a "construction" issue and the "solution" is that greens have to be rebuilt every 15 years.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2007, 08:34:02 PM »
Medinah's switch to "USGA" spec greens in order to get the 1990 US Open singlehandedly ruined Medinah's greens.  Granted, about 5 of the greens on the course were unplayable due to modern green speed demands in the late 80s, but the switch has yet to show results in my opinion.

Courses #1 and #2 still have the original Bendelow clay greens...and they are the best, most responsive greens on the property.

Ask Olympia Fields members what they think of their new USGA spec greens.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 08:34:28 PM by Ryan Potts »