News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Garland Bayley

Re:Turning the Dogleg Early
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2007, 11:07:20 AM »

I couldn't agree more with Wayne that the skill of hitting a ball far should be rewarded. I'm all for democratic designs, but forcing long hitters into bunting the ball around the course is an equalizer that makes me think of Kurt Vonnegut's hilariously sobering short story, Harrison Bergeron (which if you're interested may be found at http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html as well as in his short story collection, Welcome to the Monkey House).
 


Greg,

I think you missed the point, and your reference to Vonnegut is off base. What is proposed here was stated as being defense against tour pros. The proposal as I see it would reward those pros that can bend it around the corner, and force those that only have true command of the long straight ball to "bunt" it. So the pro that can hit it far and control the movement has the advantage and no one is forcing a handicap on him. The pro that cannot is penalized. Truly the opposite of Vonnegut's point.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 11:08:17 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

Re:Turning the Dogleg Early
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2007, 02:35:06 PM »
Like many ideas, I think this one depends on the execution as much as the idea.  If the early turn of a dogleg results in different players hitting different shots off the tee, or better yet one player doing so on different days - the concept works.

If it results in everyone choosing to lay up or everyone trying to hit the agressive shot, it probably does not work.

The only problem with the idea is that it drives the average player nuts to pipe one down the middle only to see the ball go through the fairway into trouble.  With all of the yardages given on courses these days, I really do not have a lot of sympathy.

Jason Topp

Re:Turning the Dogleg Early
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2007, 03:31:43 PM »
I just noticed my last post is really pretty much the same idea as Matt's in another thread.

Greg Murphy

Re:Turning the Dogleg Early
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2007, 05:19:49 PM »
Garland,

I was a bit concerned someone might take the reference like you have and I probably should have been clearer. I don't see Ian's early turn concept as a Harrison Bergeron. Actually quite the opposite. The theory is that if done right it does not completely take away the skill of hitting the ball long. Rather it further distinguishes those with the skill to bomb it while still keeping players who lack that skill in the game. The point was that I think we always need to be vigilant that we don't demonize the long ball and design accordingly by taking the long ball out of the game. Being able to hit the ball far is a skill that deserves reward. All the better if there is a reward on some holes for those who can curve the ball and danger for those who can't. Also, theoretically, there may be reward for those who can not just bomb it, but also control their overall distance somewhat, just like distance control into the green ought to be rewarded.

Tom_Doak

Re:Turning the Dogleg Early
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2007, 11:23:50 PM »
Ian:

On a couple of our most recent courses we have tried to angle the fairway softly from left to right or vice versa.  This would achieve the same effect you are talking about for all players, and not just for the pros who hit it "past the corner".  Do you think there is an advantage to making the start of the fairway run back straight toward the tee so it reads more as a dogleg?

Incidentally, I also love holes where the dogleg turns late and you have to carry stuff in the corner on your second shot unless you play to the way outside off the tee.

TEPaul

Re:Turning the Dogleg Early
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2007, 06:53:18 AM »
"It got me wondering if some of the landing areas should be intentionally short, so that a player simply runs out of room, or needs to turn over the ball to find the fairway. This would be almost like using length against them."

Ian:

Interesting ideas you have here but I would think this kind of thing could be pretty tricky business in how it gets exactly set up. In that vein every hole is its own set of problems and solutions that way, I'd think.

Actually I saw a perfect example of the problems and solutions with this kind of thing on one of the holes of my course this week.

We just held the Pa State Match Play Championship at GMGC and I saw this happen for the first time on our tenth hole which was redesigned by RTJ. It's a dogleg left but the fairway at the corner cants left to right at the elbow, so drives hit into this area can run hard right and long into rough. But past the dogeg and after the turn it gets flat again although the ball still runs on as the ground cants gently front to back from the drive.

To my surprise these guys are so long now that about half of them attempted to carry the ball right over all the trees at the inside of the dogleg that also contains an OB line. A perfect drive on the right line, unfortunately almost inevitable ended up in the rough through the fairway way past the dogleg.

I think most of them tried it because the hole is downhill and it was very much downwind this week.

My sense was that we need a huge bulge out of fairway area in this part of the hole way out there on the right past the dogleg just to tempt them to get aggressive over the OB and treelined corner when it isn't downwind.

They can see most of that area from the tee and if is was in fairway I think it'd tempt them more which I would encourage.

I think the idea in the context of your example is to tempt them more to get really aggressive with a driver. They have to hit it on a really good line and fly it long to get into that area. If they stray a bit too far left they're OB and if they stray too far right they'll be in trees through the fairway at the elbow.

They could lay much farther back with a utiily club or iron but they have a much longer approach shot over a pond to the green.

So I think the idea on this type of hole with this idea of yours would be to give them more fairway, not less, just to tempt them. They're all kinds of ways an aggressive drive can come to ruin but if they really slot it and hit it solid they are immensely rewarded.

That type of risk/reward balance or "equilibrium" can be pretty tricky stuff to pull off well but it think the idea is to tempt more and not try to shut down that aggressive option from the tee. You want to encourage the aggressive play albeit with real risk, not shut down the option architecturally so they're much less inclined to even try it.

Ian Andrew

Re:Turning the Dogleg Early
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2007, 09:38:41 AM »
Tom D,

Do you think there is an advantage to making the start of the fairway run back straight toward the tee so it reads more as a dogleg?

To be honest I'm not sure. I could think of examples that I liked where you felt compelled to take on the corner because of a distinct “turn" at the landing area, and others I preferred that were far more subtle in nature. Like everything else there is no one philosophical way to handle anything, I think this all depends on what you have to work with at the onset of design.


Tom P,

Agreed, there has to be a balance in the design. There must be places where the advantage of length is given an opportunity too. I was looking for an example where accuracy can be given the advantage for a few holes.

I like the example you gave where adding the fairway to encourage excessive risk places a premium on hitting the driver. Maybe that's all I really want - is to find a way to put a premium on hitting the driver without artifically squeezing the landing area.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 09:49:38 AM by Ian Andrew »

Tags: