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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
I try to jot down my impressions of courses in any area I visit, for whatever benefit it might provide to others travelling to that area.  In the last six months I have gotten to some great destinations with enjoyable, if not world class golf.

What follows are my notes and stab at a Doak rating for courses I have visited recently.  In most cases the I played the course one or twice, with a few exceptions. Some of this material has been posted in other threads.

I did not take pictures this winter, so I have attached links to the course websites instead.

Arizona

Overall:

I enjoy desert golf.  I think the courses are beautiful and have been widened to the point that too much width is a bigger problem than too little width on newer courses.

I also am always looking for value in Arizona.  Apache Stronghold and Vistal therefore hold a soft spot for me.  For the others, get out the plastic and expect to pay for the opportunity to play golf rather than to experience rare greatness in a golf course.
 

   Apache Stronghold  (Doak 4-8)

   Best layout I played this winter and, conditioning aside, my favorite Doak course over Barnbougle and Stone Eagle.  I really like the tee shots on the course, which require constant decisions, reward accurate power and rarely (if ever) take the driver out of one’s hand.  

The problem of course is that you play the course in the condition it is in.  Hence my range of Doak rankings.  On the day I visited, it was very soft due in part to some morning rain.  Other than that drawback, I found the course to be in poor, but adequate condition.

http://www.golfapache.com/

We-Ko-Pa Saguaro  (Doak 6?)

Is the Coore/Crenshaw team starting to revert to templates?  Many of the greens and the holes seemed very familiar from other courses.  Greens are fantastic.  Par threes are very good.  I am undecided as to whether the width of the fairways is merely forgiving or requires the golfer to make calculated risks off the tee.  Need more rounds on the course to decide how much I like it.  

http://www.wekopa.com/

   We-Ko-Pa Cholla (Doak 5)

   Very solid course.  Very good challenges to tee shots.  Interesting greens.  I do not like the repeated use of islands of desert in the middle of the fairway.  It is ok as a change of pace but too many holes have them here.

http://www.wekopa.com/

   Estancia (Doak 6)

   Very good walkable course with extremely difficult interesting greens.  

http://www.estancia.com/
http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/golf-course.asp?course=15291

   Desert Mountain – Chriracahua (Doak 5)

   Nicklaus formula  – wide fairways, difficult iron shots. Good test along those lines.  Beauiful setting.

http://www.desertmountain.com/chiricahua.aspx

   Vistal  (Doak 4)

Vistal packs a lot of interest in a very tight land area.  Much of that interest is created by very penal fairway bunkers which often impose a full stroke penalty due to the need to pitch out.  Thus, off the tee, one is constantly calculating his ability to place the ball where he wants, and weighing that option against the possibility of a 175-200 yard approach if he is too conservative off the tee.  

The best holes on the course are the 5th through the 9th, which play in all directions against the side of the mountain.  The course presents some truly unique challenges on other holes, ranging from a tree in front of the green on the par five first (sounds goofy, but I think it works), greens that favor shots of all shapes, including aerial, right to left, left to right and run up, a wonderful reverse redan green on a downhill par four (16) and a horseshoe (or tractor seat) green on the par five 17th.

Other positives about the course include (1) it is easily walkable, (2) the service is outstanding, without the butt-kissing or arrogant flavor so common at CCFAD’s and (3) it seems to be a course frequented by a lot of good local players based on my impression of the crowd on two separate visits spaced by a couple of years.  Unlike most courses, here the 7100 yard tees get as much use as the other options.  Definitely consider Vistal if you are looking for an affordable option in Phoenix.

Course website

http://www.vistalgolfclub.com/index.htm

   Raven at South Mountain (Doak 3)

   Containment mounds.  Only unique aspect of course is the use of pine trees.  Problem is that they are small enough and far enough out of play, it does not seem that much different from a desert course.  I played from forward tees and might have liked the course better from farther back.



Florida

   World Woods – Pine Barrens (Doak 6)

I came away a bit disappointed.  I expected more of an intimidating golf course but found it to be pretty wide open.  Some terrific terrain is used well and some outstanding par fives.

 http://www.worldwoods.com/fw/main/default.asp

   Fiddlesticks – Long Mean  (Doak 6)

Florida, almost flat, housing filled, water on most holes golf.  Nonetheless, it is the best version of this type of golf I have played.  Heroic tee shots, some interesting dunes type land, varied par threes and playable for my father on a recently replaced hip and an 82 year old friend.

 http://www.fiddlestickscc.com/fiddlesticks/

Minnesota

   Dacotah Ridge (Doak 4)

Rees Jones course that is largely treeless and typically plays in heavy wind.  The course has mild but interesting greens and great finishes to each nine.  

There are quite a few features to soften the course.  For example, greens tended to slope away from, rather than towards water hazards.  In addition, fairway bunkers are often on the opposite side of the fairway from the best angle of attack. Finally, containment mounding prevails throughout the course.  While many might criticize these portions of the course, given the windy site, the approach might make sense in order to allow many to just finish their round.  

Interesting par fives, including one or 2 that will be reachable on most days.   Par threes have a good variety of distances and have water peripherally in play, which is appropriate given the windiness of the site.

http://www.dacotahridge.com/

New Mexico

Overall – In October the area is very pleasant to play.  It is cooler than Arizona and the wind seems to kick up more frequently.  The greens tended to be soupy and most were recovering from aeration, but the fairways were generally very firm.  The area is beautiful, and, although I payed a lump sum for the trip, the price seemed very reasonable, about $650 for 5 rounds of golf and pedestrian lodging.

The courses range from solid to better than average.  Go here for the weather, price and food rather than to see once in a lifetime courses.

Courses:  

Sandia (Doak 3) - We played it from very short tees (this was a group event) and I did not get much of a feel for the course other than the fun of playing some short driveable par fours and par fives that were generally mid irons into the greens.  Pretty wide course in a nice location but not a real memorable design.  http://www.sandiagolf.com/


Santa Ana:  (Doak 4-5) The surprise of the trip for me.  Intimidating off the tee because of large areas of natural vegetation to carry.  If one is capable of that task, a pretty interesting design with many fairways angled to the tee and severely contoured greens.  It looked like there was an original 18 with additional new holes sprinkled in.  The original holes seemed far superior to the new ones, which tended to use a lot of water and could have been found anywhere. http://www.santaanagolf.com/Santa%5FAna/


Twin Warriors – (Doak 4-5) Beautiful setting.  I can't say that I remember a lot about the course.  I was playing well at the time, and perhaps that fact reveals something about my ability to focus on architecture and golf at the same time.  http://www.twinwarriorsgolf.com/index2.htm

Paa Ko Ridge (Doak 6) - Beautiful setting up and over ridges at relatively high elevations and interesting holes.  We played 36 consisting of all 3 nines once and holes 1-9 a second time.  The primary weakness in my view was an endless repetition of drop shot par threes (6 of them) with the only exception being an interesting slightly uphill par three on the first nine with a green 90 yards long.  From our tee, we had 87 yards to the front and 162 to the pin into the wind.  I hit 6 and 5 iron on the hole.

Par fours and fives tended to present interesting tee shot options with an agressive tee shot yielding a significantly easier 2nd, but at the cost of tightened landing areas.  I do not know how walkable the course is but there were quite a few high school kids walking the course. http://www.paakoridge.com/


Hawaii

Overall:  You are in Hawaii.  There are better things to do than overpay to play mediocre golf courses.


Poipu  (Doak 3) –  Pretty mundane course with a fabulous view.  It would be interesting to try and come up with a routing that takes better advantage of the beautiful ocean views.  http://www.poipubaygolf.com/

« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 02:53:23 PM by Jason Topp »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Conclusions from these trips

After playing some of the world's best in 2006, I suppose it is not surprising that I find it difficult to be real excited about playing most vacation destination courses.  

Paradoxically, I now place more emphasis on my company, the surroundings and my game than the golf course unless it is a truly special experience.  Apache Stronghold was the one golf course that really was interesting to me and that I really want to see again.

Nonetheless, in deciding what I liked best, I found my thoughts focused on the following:

1.   I tended to differentiate courses on how interesting they were off the tee.  So many courses are mundane, either because the fairway is so wide and there is insufficient reason to choose a particular line or because the design is repetitive.

2.   I like offset, wide fairways on holes of sufficient length to tempt aggressive play. (Apache Stronghold, Fiddlesticks Long Mean).

3.   I think most courses would be more enjoyable if the par threes and the par fives were played from one set of tees forward than is reflected on the card.  

a.   Par fives are most fun when they are reachable with a good driver and three wood.

b.   Courses tend to pack extra yardage into par threes, detracting from the variety of such holes.

4.   Courses designed with a specific turn point (e.g. 210 yards from the white tee or 270 from the back tee) ignore the reality that golfers vary greatly in the distance they hit the ball.  Often, two people in the same group will have over a hundred yard gap in carry distance.  Courses should be designed with 100 yards difference in expected driver distances.

5.  I do not think bunker shapes and appearances matter much to me.  I only care about how they play and where they are placed.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Jason:

You played four courses which I've played since writing The Confidential Guide, and your ratings would be the same as mine for three of the four, including Apache Stronghold.  I actually rated Poipu Bay better than you did ... maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, or maybe I enjoyed it more because GOLF Magazine paid the green fee for that one!

Andy Troeger

Jason,
Thanks for the frank comments and thought put into the posts above. I've played quite a few of the courses you've mentioned (WKPS, WWPB, Estancia, all the NM ones) and would pretty much put them in the same order as you did. I'd put Paa-Ko Ridge at the top ahead of all the other courses that you listed as 6's. Many of the courses you played are quite good, but I'm not surprised none ended up right at the top of the heap for you.

My only additional comment...IMO you only saw 1 of the 5 best publics in NM on your trip (Paa-Ko). My other four would be Black Mesa, and then UNM-South, Pinon Hills, and Cochiti. The three others you played would come right behind that group, and I haven't seen Taos, Sierra Blanca, or Inn of the Mountain Gods. Other than Black Mesa, though, I'm not sure there's a huge difference for me (other than coming down to personal preference).

Again, thanks for posting your thoughts!

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Barrens a Doak 6?!  Wow, I think it is outstanding.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason:

You played four courses which I've played since writing The Confidential Guide, and your ratings would be the same as mine for three of the four, including Apache Stronghold.  I actually rated Poipu Bay better than you did ... maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, or maybe I enjoyed it more because GOLF Magazine paid the green fee for that one!


Tom:

Thanks for the response.  Poipu certainly could be rated higher.  To my mind, the memorable parts of the course were the anticipation created by having ocean views as a part of an inland triangle of holes (2 and 3) and the finish from the par five into the wind and back to the clubhouse.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,
Thanks for the frank comments and thought put into the posts above. I've played quite a few of the courses you've mentioned (WKPS, WWPB, Estancia, all the NM ones) and would pretty much put them in the same order as you did. I'd put Paa-Ko Ridge at the top ahead of all the other courses that you listed as 6's. Many of the courses you played are quite good, but I'm not surprised none ended up right at the top of the heap for you.

My only additional comment...IMO you only saw 1 of the 5 best publics in NM on your trip (Paa-Ko). My other four would be Black Mesa, and then UNM-South, Pinon Hills, and Cochiti. The three others you played would come right behind that group, and I haven't seen Taos, Sierra Blanca, or Inn of the Mountain Gods. Other than Black Mesa, though, I'm not sure there's a huge difference for me (other than coming down to personal preference).

Again, thanks for posting your thoughts!

Andy - I will definitely return to New Mexico and look forward to trying the others on your list some day.  I had Black Mesa scheduled, but it was going to be a real hassle to get done so I saved it for a future visit.  I have also always wanted to go to Pinion Hills.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Barrens a Doak 6?!  Wow, I think it is outstanding.


John - I see a 6 as reflecting a very good course and my rating is nothing more than a gut level reaction based on one day's experience.  

World Woods may have suffered a bit for me because of my expectations.  I have wanted to see that course almost since it opened.  I expected a real Pine Valley type course and it had more of a Brainerd feel.  

I really liked some of those greens tucked into hillsides, the par threes, particularly the reverse redan, the short par four and the par fives, particularly the one right before the short par four.    

Andy Troeger


Andy - I will definitely return to New Mexico and look forward to trying the others on your list some day.  I had Black Mesa scheduled, but it was going to be a real hassle to get done so I saved it for a future visit.  I have also always wanted to go to Pinion Hills.

Jason,
Hope you do get back to NM for those two. Only bad thing about Pinon is that its a couple hours from ABQ/SF and the rest of the courses without much of note in between or close to it. Still worth it, just takes some effort!

Jay Flemma

I'd rate WW and Paako higher...7...maybe 8...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Jay:

They may be 8's on the Flemma scale, if comparing them to other venues open to the public ... but compared to the real 8's on the Doak scale?  No way.  One of the two MIGHT get a 7 if I'm feeling generous.

Andy Troeger

Jay,
FWIW, (and without remembering the exact definitions on the Doak scale), I'd give Paa-Ko Ridge a 7 too. I like it one notch above most of Jason's 6 rated courses (which are very good in their right)--Estancia, WWPB, WKPS, etc.

Jim Colton

Jason,

  Thanks for your insights.  I have an almost identical NM trip scheduled for August and the more I read about the courses, the more excited I get (we are playing Black Mesa).  Plus we got some outstanding deal due to a mistake by the travel guy...something like $510 for 9 rounds plus accomodations.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,

  Thanks for your insights.  I have an almost identical NM trip scheduled for August and the more I read about the courses, the more excited I get (we are playing Black Mesa).  Plus we got some outstanding deal due to a mistake by the travel guy...something like $510 for 9 rounds plus accomodations.

Enjoy your trip.  There are several people on the board that know the New Mexico courses well and should be able to answer any questions you have.

Matt_Ward

Jason:

In going to New Mexico you avoided the real deal with Black Mesa. It's like going to New York State and not playing Bethpage Black among public choices available.

Couple of quick questions ...

You found AS to be in "poor but adequate condition." Sounds like artful political correct spin. If something's truly poor (I've played AS no less than three times with two of those occasions being exactly as described) then I have really no desire to play the place.

AS gets plenty of mileage because of the man who designed the course. I have no doubt about the many unique and fun elements that are part of the course, however, course grooming needs to be at a level that ADDS to the elements already there.

One other quick thing -- hats off to your comments on Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa. I completely agree that the C&C output is now moving more towards the template issue you raised. Vista Verde by Ken Kavanaugh is the superior layout in my mind. Vista Verde gets little attention because Kavanaugh's name is associated with the design and the groupies on GCA who fawn over anything tied to C&C have a good bit of difficulty in separting their most solid designs from those a good bit less in overall stature and fanfare.

One other thing -- I too also like a number of design elements found at Santa Ana -- did you play the Tamaya and Cheenya nines -- those are the ones that are two best there IMHO?

Final item -- Jack's work at Chiricahua at DM is far better than an overall 5. Unfortunately, many people tend to see all the courses at DM as being the same design output. They are clearly different. Take for example the opening trio of holes at Chiricahua -- the 1st is a wonderful long par-4 that plays downhill to a wonderful green. The short 2nd may be one of the absolute best holes of that length Jack has ever designed. The bowl shaped green is quite cool indeed. The long par-5 3rd is a solid example of risk-and-reward. You also have a stunning array of different par-4 holes -- most notably the 9th and 10th. Next time you are there you need to play Outlaw which is across the street. I would say that both of these courses represent top quality Nicklaus efforts and are at the very top end of what you can play when in the desert environment of Arizona.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Matt - my responses to some of your points:


Jason:


You found AS to be in "poor but adequate condition." Sounds like artful political correct spin. If something's truly poor (I've played AS no less than three times with two of those occasions being exactly as described) then I have really no desire to play the place.

AS gets plenty of mileage because of the man who designed the course. I have no doubt about the many unique and fun elements that are part of the course, however, course grooming needs to be at a level that ADDS to the elements already there.

--------------------------------------------------

I was not trying to be artfully political.  When I played there, the course looked ugly, but had adequate lies. The greens were soft and slow but putted true.  

Even in that condition, it was the course out of my entire list I enjoyed the most.  I doubt it is because of the name of the designer (but we never really can determine our own impartiality can we).  Obviously, it could be so much more and many people would hate it because of the marginal conditions.

___________________________________________  

One other quick thing -- hats off to your comments on Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa. I completely agree that the C&C output is now moving more towards the template issue you raised. Vista Verde by Ken Kavanaugh is the superior layout in my mind. Vista Verde gets little attention because Kavanaugh's name is associated with the design and the groupies on GCA who fawn over anything tied to C&C have a good bit of difficulty in separting their most solid designs from those a good bit less in overall stature and fanfare.
_____________________________________________

Matt - we exchanged views on this last winter.  I like the course, but did feel like I had seen many of the greens and holes before.  I would like more exposure to form a more definitive opinion, but am not sure I want to spend the money to do so.  I definitely hope to see Vista Verde some day.

_____________________________________________

One other thing -- I too also like a number of design elements found at Santa Ana -- did you play the Tamaya and Cheenya nines -- those are the ones that are two best there IMHO?

__________________________________________

I played Cheena and Star.  Cheena was definitely better than Star, which seemed to have quite a few newer holes.  I would definitely return to spend an entire day playing 36 at this place.

_____________________________________________

Final item -- Jack's work at Chiricahua at DM is far better than an overall 5. Unfortunately, many people tend to see all the courses at DM as being the same design output. They are clearly different. Take for example the opening trio of holes at Chiricahua -- the 1st is a wonderful long par-4 that plays downhill to a wonderful green. The short 2nd may be one of the absolute best holes of that length Jack has ever designed. The bowl shaped green is quite cool indeed. The long par-5 3rd is a solid example of risk-and-reward. You also have a stunning array of different par-4 holes -- most notably the 9th and 10th. Next time you are there you need to play Outlaw which is across the street. I would say that both of these courses represent top quality Nicklaus efforts and are at the very top end of what you can play when in the desert environment of Arizona.
_________________________________________________

Matt - My ranking is based on one round, and a round in which I struggled, so take it for what it is worth.  It is not, however, based on any generalized impression of Desert Mountain.  This is the only course I have seen.

Based on that limited experience, my view differs on the first three holes.  I thought 1 was a pretty average hole, notable primarily because it is a tough opener.

Two seemed really goofy to me with the agressive option insufficiently tempting to be worth the try.  It may well be the case that repeated exposure would allow me to understand the hole and I do not now.

I agree three is a fabulous hole.  I cannot remember 9 or 10 and could not find them on the web


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