Shivas,
I think the logic behind your opinion is fine, I think enforcing it is the biggest issue...is your complaint purely on the aiming function? Or could it be primarily a pace of play issue?
It's principle first; practical second. This is wrong in concept; and wrong in effect.
If these guys could do it immediately and with no re-do's, would you have a problem?
Hell no, because it's still wrong in principle.
Would a shot clock be a good answer in competitive golf?
No. You don't need one if players have something resembling the spirit of the game. All I see is narcissistic me, me, me over all else.
As you know, unless you/your group is out of position you can take as long as you want to hit a shot today...should we put a 60 second rule in even when the player is in position?
No, a shot clock is as against the spirit of the game as Cheater Lines and Range Cheaters. The spirit of the game is first and foremost, that it's a gentleman's game. Gentlemen call penalties on themselves. And gentlemen do not selfishly waste other peoples' time.
Here's the sick thing:
A hundred years ago, this stuff was so obvious, it didn't even even need to be said.
Fast forward 100 years, and I'm almost a lone voice. Our society has gone to shit and it's now polluted golf, too.
The interesting thing here, and it was a question I never received an answer to previously, does the cheater line go against the spirit of the rules? To state the use of the cheater line is wrong in principle suggests that it is isn't in the spirit of the rules. Now, if we look back at the history of this rule, which I pointed out on another thread, I think it is easy to say the cheater line is wrong in principle, but much harder to back up with evidence especially in context with the history of the rule.
Personally, I think it is a badly worded rule which was a mistake because it clearly does not follow the logic of the previous version of the rule. Which again leads me to the question, if the rule were written so that a line on the ball was clearly permissable (such as from a fairway shot), would this be against the spirit of the rules?
Ciao
Sean, I think you're confusing the uses of the word mark as a verb and as a noun.
The very first use in the Leith Rules is as a verb.
Today's rule uses it as a noun.
Under the Leith Rules, you couldn't mark your way to the hole with anything.
Under today's rule, you can't place a mark anywhere to indicate a line.
No marking with anything.
No marks anywhere.
What's so unclear about that?
What we have is essentially bookend violations such that under the language of the very first rule, the Cheater Line is illegal and under the language of today's rule is also illegal.
The only time the Cheater Line would not have been illegal is for that period of time where the only mark that was prohibited was a mark "on the green" and the rulesmakers specifically changed that language to make it broader and pick up more marks as illegal.
So yeah, I see it as violative of the spirit of the game. I also see it as violative of the original rules of the game.
I hope TEP is right and lots of USGA guys read this site (and specifically this thread) and that this Kittleson kid is the final straw for them.
If they take action, (A) it'll be long overdue, (B) it'll speed up the game; (C) it'll purify the game; (d) it'll reverse the erosion of judgment as fundamental to the game and (E) most players will immediately comply and I don't expect any serious issues to result.
The game will be better as a result and they ought to do it ASAP.
Shivas
This is why I think you are wrong in spirit and in practice. The rule makers have stated uncategorically that using a manufacturer's line is legit. Now, you can debate the difference between this and a personal mark (which are allowed for identification purposes) til you are blue in the face. In practice, there is NO DIFFERENCE. So, I am not interested in debating that aspect in the slightest because it makes no material difference who places the mark on the ball if it is used to indicate the line of play on the green.
I am not at all interested in club rules either. Sure, these early rule makers such as Aberdeen and Leith eventually influenced the R&A, but critically, these early clubs did not represent all clubs because some rules were specific to a course or local situation. Besides, it could well be argued that the R&A interpreted Leith etc (and it must be noted that St Andrews was amongst these influential clubs) rules as they were written for the 1899 rules. Therefore, so far as I am concerned, the earliest rules to look at so far as all (existing) UK clubs were concerned was the R&A. This committee (approved by all the leading clubs of the UK) was formed shortly before the turn of the century and comprehensive rules were released a few years later. The USGA was quick to adopt the rules with a few differences.
1899
"20. When the ball is on the putting-green, no mark shall be placed, nor line drawn as a guide. The line of the putt may be pointed out by the players caddie, his partner, or his partner’s caddie, but the person doing so must not touch the ground."
1902
19. When the ball is on the putting-green, no mark shall be placed, nor line drawn as a guide. The line of the putt may be pointed out by the player’s caddie, his partner, or his partner’s caddie, but the person doing so must not touch the ground.
The player’s caddie, his partner, or his partner’s caddie, may stand at the hole, but no player nor caddie shall endeavour, by moving or otherwise, to influence the action of the wind upon the ball.
The penalty for a breach of this rule is the loss of the hole.
1904 - same as 1902.
1908
Rule 29
Direction for Putting
(1) When the player’s ball is on the putting-green, the player’s caddie, his partner, or his partner’s caddie may, before the stroke is played, point out a direction for putting, but in doing this they shall not touch the ground on the proposed line of putt. No mark shall be placed anywhere on the putting-green.
The same wording remained through 1946.
1950
"RULE 8 ADVICE (Def. 2)
1. Asking for advice
A player shall not ask for, nor take any action which could result in his receiving advice, except from his caddie, his partner or his partner’s caddie.
2. Indicating position of the putting green
A player may have the position of the putting green indicated to him by anyone.
(For indicating position of the hole - Rule 38,1(i)).
3. Indicating line of play
A player may have the line of play indicated to him, but only by his caddie, his partner or his partner’s caddie.
No one shall place a mark on, or while the stroke is being made, stand on the PROPOSED LINE OF PLAY in order to indicate it.
(Indicating line of play on putting green - Rule 39,1(ii)(b)).
Penalty for breach of Rule - One stroke.2"
1952
" RULE 35 THE PUTTING GREEN (Def. 25)
1. General
a. Loose Impediments.
A player may move any loose impediment from the putting green either by picking it up or brushing it aside either with his hand or a club; nothing may be pressed down, and if a club is used it shall not be pressed with more than its own weight on the ground.
If the player's ball move after any loose impediment lying within six inches of it has been touched by the player, his partner, or either of their caddies, the player shall be deemed to have caused the ball to move and shall incur a penalty stroke. The ball shall be played as it lies.
b. Touching Line of Putt.
Except as provided for in Clause 1a of this Rule, the line of the putt must not be touched. The player shall, however, incur no penalty in placing the club in front of the ball in the act of addressing it, but nothing may be pressed down.
c. Direction for Putting.
When the player's ball is on the putting green, the player's caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie may, before the stroke is played, point out a line for putting, but the line of the putt shall not be touched in front of, to the side of, or behind the hole.
No mark shall be placed anywhere on the putting green to indicate a line for putting."
1954 -1980 the rule was stated the same.
1984
"8-1. Advice
Except as provided in Rule 8-2, a player may give advice to or ask advice from, only his partner or either of their caddies.
Note: In a team competition without concurrent individual competition, the Committee may in the conditions of the competition (Rule 33-1) permit each team to appoint one person, e.g., team captain or coach, who may give advice to members of that team. Such person shall be identified to the Committee prior to the start of the competition.
8-2. Indicating Line of Play
a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one shall stand or close to the line while the stroke is being played.
Any mark placed during the play of a hole by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line shall be removed before the stroke is played.
Exception: Flagstick attended or held up - see Rule 17-1
b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player’s caddie, his partner or his partner’s caddie may, before a stroke is played, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green shall not be touched in front of, to the side of, or behind the hole. No mark shall be placed anywhere on the putting green to indicate a line for putting.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play - loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes."
1988
"Rule 8. Advice; Indicating Line of Play
Definitions
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules or on matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.
8-1. Advice
A player shall not give advice to anyone in the competition except his partner. A player may ask for advice from only his partner or either of their caddies.
8-2. Indicating Line of Play
a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one shall stand or close to the line while the stroke is being played.
Any mark placed during the play of a hole by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line shall be removed before the stroke is played.
Exception: Flagstick attended or held up - see Rule 17-1
b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green shall not be touched. No mark shall be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play - Loss of hole;
Stroke play - Two strokes."
Finally, it isn't until 1988 that the rule, as you believe to be in the spirit of the rules, finally appears. So, for the first 90 years of formally agreed upon rules amongst nearly all clubs outside of North America (and I would be surprised if N America's weren't worded similarily, but I aint gonna check), Rule 8 was not worded the you seem to believe as the spirit of the rules.
Again, I believe the current decision to allow markings on the ball to indicate the line of play is within the spirit of the rules. In 1988 the powers that be changed the wording, but got it terribly wrong in spirit and what would be in practice.
Of course, all my ideas could be complete bunk if the wording of holing out was altered because of the development of formalizing the putting green!
Ciao