Shivas's cheater line

[tlavin]

Dare I start a thread on seaming the ball on my tee shots?

I've already mentioned that one.

I would hope under the Shivas/Mucci rules we would get an interpretation that it is not considered marking your line of play.

If you do it with a line or other mark, I'd say it violates 8(a) for the same reasons, but slightly different textual language.   I see no practical difference between aligning a line on the tee and laying a club down outside the ball on your intended line.  If you do it with just an unmarked seam, that'd be different because your intent is different. As I've said before, the seam is really the absence of a mark, sort of like how white is the absence of color.  If the rule requires a mark, it'd make no sense to penalize it.

A hundred bucks says your interpretation of the rule is never validated by the USGA.

[CHrisB]

A hundred bucks says your interpretation of the rule is never validated by the USGA.

Shivas,
Take this bet! If the USGA does go your way you'll get $100, and even if they don't you won't have to pay until "never" is over!

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:  yes, your initial question did have some architectural parts... but those have been addressed and given as much attention in this now 21 page thread about as much as such has been given to the plight of the snowy plover.   And given you yourself have participated quite a bit in the non-architectural parts of the discussion on this immense thread, well... I don't see that anyone owes you any apologies.  Just come clean man... the truth shall set you free... you LIKE OT threads!  

I had an interesting real-life example of all of this, btw.  Yesterday my 9 year old son and I were playing a par three course.  He was quite excited to use his fancy new Nike junior golf balls someone had given him as a gift.  After a few holes he noticed some little square markings in a row on the side of the ball....  "What are these for, Daddy?"

Now how should one answer him?

After a good laugh based on this thread, I had to admit to him "they're for lining up the ball, in line with the hole."

His face lit up... he thought that was eminently cool....

And then he took easily 30 seconds to painstakingly line up the squares before his next putt.

It missed.

"Those marks are stupid."

He never used them again.

Comments?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

Markings can only aid in determining the line of a putt when the markings are linear in nature, be they continuous or segmented.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:  

yes, your initial question did have some architectural parts.

Comments?

You are correct on THIS issue.  

With respect to you experience with your son, what would you have told him if the next 4 putts he took 30 seconds to line up, went in ?   [/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I'll let you slide, I'm in a good mood today.  

But great question!  That thought did occur to me.. let's just say I was glad he missed and this played itself out quite nicely.  Trying to explain why a reputable golf company like Nike would put markings on the ball for an obvious use that's contrary to the spirit of the rules, well.... that would be a very difficult thing to do for a 9 year old.  Hell grown men in here are taking weeks and weeks to come to any consensus on it.

 

Bottom line of course would have been "you're taking way too long."  I actually did tell him this after the putt in question.  I left the legal analysis of the rules for another day.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Years ago I was in a hotel/casino with my two children.
As we went by the casino my kids asked me all about it.
I told them what went on in there and they said that I should go in and gamble.  They each gave me a dollar and told me to play the quarter slot machines.

I went in, played the third quarter and hit a jackpot.

I was excited and came out of the casino with a lot of quarters.  They were excited.  Then, they told me to go back in and gamble more, that's when I realized, Uh Oh.  I told them that we had to get to the next scheduled event and didn't have the time.

The next night, they each gave me 4 quarters and told me to go into the casino and play the slots, which I did.  I'll be damned if I didn't hit another Jackpot.  I converted the quarters to dollars and exited the casino with a long look on my face.  I told them that I lost all their money.

They urged me to go into the casino two more nights, which I did, but I didn't gamble, I came out telling them that I had lost and that gambling was not a good thing to do because you'll lose all of your money, and that's why casinos can afford to build big hotels and facilities, because they're doing it with your money.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

That is a very fine lesson.

My problem with the golf issue with my son is that the guardians of the game would seem to say it's OK to use the markings for whatever purpose you wish.

Would you really have me tell my son the guardians of the game are wrong, or to be over-ruled?

Understand I am pretty much with you and Shivas if I were to take a stance on this issue.  But you have to understand it's a difficult thing to try and explain to a 9 year old.

The main lesson learned was a good one:  slow play is never tolerated.  And that point was driven home.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

In addition to the slow play issue, I think I'd explain the Cheater's Line to a begining player as a crutch or baby wheels and that while legal, that crutch or wheels might be removed, placing your son at a disadvantage in learning how to read and line up his putts.

Range finders are also legal, but, I don't use them.

An interesting event occured at my club this weekend.

A fellow who's about 75, who's been an outstanding player all of his life was complaining that our golf course hadn't been measured for SkyCaddy (it has in fact)

I told him, schmuck, you've been playing this golf course for 60 years, why in the world would you need SkyCaddy, you know every shot, every yardage to the foot, especially in light of the elevation changes and dogleg nature of some of the holes.

He thought for a moment, knowing that I had him.
And then he said, "yeah, you're right, the only trouble is, I can't remember them anymore"  which was cute.

P.S.  He can remember them and every sprinkler head is
       marked.

[Tom Huckaby]

That too is sage counsel - many thanks.

I shall indeed address this the next time.

In the meantime, it was pretty damn funny this came up.  Oh yes, I have been following this thread.

 

[John_Cullum]

Sean

I may have to enlist you along with Tom Paul to replace my recently deceased consultant on matters concerning Catholic Dogma.

[Craig Sweet]

Mucci...not only did I read it, I KNEW who posted it...

It is quite a long stretch from a top your high horse....to this topic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mucci...not only did I read it, I KNEW who posted it...

It is quite a long stretch from a top your high horse....to this topic.

I've quoted paragraphs # 3 and # 4 below.
They're far from a long stretch and clearly ON topic.

Be honest and tell us, If someone else wrote those sentences would you have brought the issue up ?[/color]

"Do cheater lines thwart the intended challenge of the putting surfaces ?"

And, if more and more putting surfaces are flattened to accomodate increased speeds, will these markings have even more influence on aligning the golfer ?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
STOP THE B.S.
There is nothing currently written in the rules of golf or in the Decisions of golf that clarifies the language and the interpretation.
Refering to "A" committee is completely bogus, because, as you know, one committee can rule one way while another committee rules another.
The issue needs to be clarified, not at the committee level, but at the Rules and Decisions level."

Patrick:

I think I can pretty much guarantee you there probably isn't a bona fide "committee" in the world that would be so confused as to think or interpret that there is something in Rule 8-2b to indicate that aligning a golf ball for the purposes of indicating a line for putting is a violaton of the Rules, particularly when Dec 20-3a/2 is referenced.

Well, let me amend that slightly.

I think I can pretty much guarantee you there probably isn't a bona fide "committee" in the world that would be so confused as to think or interpret that there is something in Rule 8-2b to indicate that aligning a golf ball for the purposes of indicating a line for putting is a violaton of the Rules, particularly when Dec 20-3a/2 is referenced, UNLESS EITHER YOU OR SHIVAS ARE ON THAT COMMITTEE.

Actually, I've been officiating since about 1988 (when the words "on the putting green" were removed from the last sentence of Rule 8-2b) and I have never heard of a Rules official, a committee or even a player be confused by or even question if this practice is or should be a violation of Rule 8-2b.

Sometimes it's not a good idea to overanalyze the Rules or to try to read too much into them, particularly for people like you. I can understand that thinking too much could quite easily confuse you.

[TEPaul]

"Sean
I may have to enlist you along with Tom Paul to replace my recently deceased consultant on matters concerning Catholic Dogma."

JohnC:

I'm quite confident I could be of great service to you on matters concerning Catholic Dogma.

My general catch-all solution is nothing less than abolishing the Catholic Church.  

[TEPaul]

Patrick Mucci said:

"A fellow who's about 75, who's been an outstanding player all of his life was complaining that our golf course hadn't been measured for SkyCaddy (it has in fact)
I told him, schmuck,......"


The guy uses a legal rangefinder and you called him 'schmuck', did you Patrick?

What do you call a player at your club who violates a Rule of Golf by a mistake?  

[JESII]

I would contend that using the "cheater-line" could only help your green reading ability...I could also argue that it could have only beneficial effects on your alignment ability as well if it ever were revoked.

[John_Cullum]

Sully has already sort of eludued to this Please read ALL of Rule 8-2.

8-2 Indicating Line of Play
 a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green , a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.

 b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.
Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes

When trying to construe a rule, one should consider the entire rule to ensure that the proper meaning is given to that portion of the rule in dispute. (The Latin maxim is Nemo aliquam partem recte intelligere potest antequam totum perlegit. No one can properly understand a part until he has read the whole.)

8-2a refers to placing marks prior to making strokes and then moving the mark out of the way. So rule 8-2(a and b) is discussing movable marks, not identification marks drawn permanently onto a ball.

The rule is carefully written to allow a player to put out markers along the way until he gets to the putting green, then he can't do it, on or off of the green. That is why the USGA changed the rule to say "ANYWHERE."

There is no other way to read the rule so that it makes sense in its entirety.

Tom Paul's rules maven should have known this, but like everyone else (except Sully)bouncing around in this Pat Mucci initiated OT Thread, he got caught up in just looking at the wording of 8-2b.

Tom P, you may want to have the USGA call me before they start shooting from the hip with their reasoning in the future.

[Kalen Braley]

Wow..

#2 on the Most Replies list.  Does it have enough steam to over-take the top spot?

[TEPaul]

JohnC:

What makes you think the 'Rules maven' didn't know that? Did you speak with him about it?  

He did say when the player's ball is on the putting green the removal of the words "on the putting green" (to read "anywhere" from what it used to be---eg "anywhere on the putting green") no mark shall be place anywhere---on the green, off the green (such as a tee off the green) etc, etc. The only exception is a mark on the golf ball.

[Pete_Pittock]

Is the cheater line any good on the fourth putt?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think I can pretty much guarantee you there probably isn't a bona fide "committee" in the world that would be so confused as to think or interpret that there is something in Rule 8-2b to indicate that aligning a golf ball for the purposes of indicating a line for putting is a violaton of the Rules, particularly when Dec 20-3a/2 is referenced.

Well, let me amend that slightly.

I think I can pretty much guarantee you there probably isn't a bona fide "committee" in the world that would be so confused as to think or interpret that there is something in Rule 8-2b to indicate that aligning a golf ball for the purposes of indicating a line for putting is a violaton of the Rules, particularly when Dec 20-3a/2 is referenced, UNLESS EITHER YOU OR SHIVAS ARE ON THAT COMMITTEE.

Then let me enlighten you.

Neither Shivas nor myself reside on the Ohio Golf Association or on their competition committee, yet, they chose to implement a "tournament" ball rule.

A committee, fed up with the erosion of the values they hold near and dear to their hearts and the USGA's failure to act, CAN interpret 8-2 b in a strict fashion.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick Mucci said:

"A fellow who's about 75, who's been an outstanding player all of his life was complaining that our golf course hadn't been measured for SkyCaddy (it has in fact)
I told him, schmuck,......"

The guy uses a legal rangefinder and you called him 'schmuck', did you Patrick?

If you could read properly, you would have understood that he WASN'T using the SKY Caddy, he was complaining about its lack of implementation at a club that he's been a member of all of his life, all 75 years and a friend of mine for 50, hence, the term "schmuck" is a term of endearment.
[/color]

What do you call a player at your club who violates a Rule of Golf by a mistake?  

How do you know whether or not it's a mistake ?
[/color]

[TEPaul]

"Then let me enlighten you.
Neither Shivas nor myself reside on the Ohio Golf Association or on their competition committee, yet, they chose to implement a "tournament" ball rule."

Patrick:

A word of advice. It may be better for you not to make statements like that unless you enjoy putting your foot farther into your mouth. How big is your foot, by the way?

If a "Tournament Committee" implements a "tournament" ball as a "Condition of Competition" that is not countrary to the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf at this time because a "tournament ball" "Condition of Competition" does not at this time waive a Rule of golf.

Therefore, Patrick, that example and analogy is in no way relevent to this subject and the interpretation by the USGA that the practice of aligning the mark on a golf ball to indicate the line of putting is not a violation of Rule 8-2b!

"A committee, fed up with the erosion of the values they hold near and dear to their hearts and the USGA's failure to act, CAN interpret 8-2 b in a strict fashion."

No, Patrick, they cannot. They cannot rule that it is a violation of Rule 8-2b to use a mark on a golf ball to indicate the line for putting if they wish to play by the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf. If a "committee" interpreted the aligning of a golf ball used to indicate the line for putting as a violation of Rule 8-2b they would be waiving a R&A/USGA Rule of Golf and therefore they would not be playing by the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf.

[John_Cullum]

Is the cheater line any good on the fourth putt?

That brings up a good question for Shivas. Is it a 2 stroke penalty on each putt, or just once per green. I think there should not be a penalty after the second putt, even the rules of golf occasionally deem that a player has suffered enough.