Shivas's cheater line

[Michael Moore]

To remind me of the important things in life, I have my three year old scribble all over my golf balls before each tournament.

When putting, I place the ball at random. Then I hunker down behind the ball for a good long time, but without undue delay, focus on an appropriate portion of scribble, and use that to indicate the line of the putt as I stand over the ball.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm midly surprised that no mention has been made of lining up your aiming point with an old ball mark on the green?

So instead of aiming with a line on the ball, how about mentally drawing a line between your ball and a odd color patch, or old ball mark on the green that is 3-4 feet away?  Would this be in violation of the rules?  Because if memory serves me right Jack did this all the time.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I'm actually with Shivas on this one, not that it matters...I'd rather beat the dead horse about banning the long putter first. Can I? Can I please? Can I? Can I?

[Kalen Braley]

I'm midly surprised that no mention has been made of lining up your aiming point with an old ball mark on the green?

So instead of aiming with a line on the ball, how about mentally drawing a line between your ball and a odd color patch, or old ball mark on the green that is 3-4 feet away?  Would this be in violation of the rules?  Because if memory serves me right Jack did this all the time.

Of course not Kalen.  No violation, for the simple reason that you did not place a mark to indicate a line for putting.  You merely found a point to aim that was already there.  

I only brought that up just because no one else had mentioned it.  That being said, I can't seem to find one counter arguement to your assertion, other than the USGA's ruling essentially saying "we make the rules and we are going to look the other way on this one".  I never used to line my putts up that way until I saw the pros doing it on TV..

[Michael Moore]

What if I don't like what I see on the scribbled-on ball, and then place it down randomly seven more times before I finally get a scribble that indicates the line to me? I do it really fast, without undue delay.

[JR Potts]

What if I don't like what I see on the scribbled-on ball, and then place it down randomly seven more times before I finally get a scribble that indicates the line to me? I do it really fast, without undue delay.

Speed is irrelevent.  DQ for placing a mark to indicate a line for putting.  See how easy this is?  I know you're trying to yank my chain, BTW, but I'll keep answering anyway so you don't get the pleasure of getting me to quit....

What a horrible game competitive golf would be if your strict interpretation of this rule were followed.  Amazingly, it would probably be worse than what we saw yesterday on the tube.

[Dan Kelly]

Am I the only one who tries to put a type-free white space at the top of my ball?

See, I'm one of those readaholic types -- and I figure it's hard to read and putt at the same time.

It's not always that easy to get a big old white space on top, as golf balls get more and more NASCARed up.

[Jim Franklin]

And without rules there would be anarchy.

[Mike Benham]

Hit some putts at the putting green today at lunch, one guy actually had 3 parrallel lines on his golf ball ... does this make him 3 times as slow as the guy with one cheater line?

[JR Potts]

Yeah Ryan, I know, the game would be terrible of all the rules had to be followed in golf.

Guy's ball is 1/4 inch into the fringe.  What the hell.  Pick it up, clean it and replace it.

Guy tees up an inch ahead of the tee markers?  BDF.  Doesn't count.

Guy clips a few grains of sand in his backswing from a bunker.  Aw, c'mon, those 6 grains of sand didn't impact anything, and besides, if NBC was using their SD cameras instead of the HD ones they just bought, nobody would have noticed anyway...

Puh-lease.  All the rules of golf are interpreted strictly.  That's why they're the Rules of Golf.  

#1 trick of lawyers everywhere....when you point is not well received, always argue in extremes.

[JR Potts]

Using your logic then (as I just read the thread), it isn't a violation of the letter of the rule if Titleist puts the mark on the ball --- but it is if you put the mark on the ball?

Even a mark to identify it?

Or, you can put a mark on it to help for identification but you have to go out of your way to make sure it is in no way pointing in the required direction.

Or, if it is pointing in the required direction, you can still aviod a penalty if you do not possess the required mens rea.

I'm confused.

I have to go back to drawing blue lines on the black line that Titleist already has on the ball.

[JR Potts]

Using your logic then (as I just read the thread), it isn't a violation of the letter of the rule if Titleist puts the mark on the ball --- but it is if you put the mark on the ball?

No.  That's somebody else's logic.  My logic is simple, and happens to follow the rule:  while your ball is on the putting green, if you place a mark (any mark, regardless of who generated it and when) to indicate a line for putting, you violated 8-2(b).  If you don't, you don't.

Even a mark to identify it?

Yes.  If it's placed to indicate a line for putting at the time you fidget it into position, yes.

Or, you can put a mark on it to help for identification but you have to go out of your way to make sure it is in no way pointing in the required direction.

No.  There is no overt avoidance required. That's a red herring.  If you put the ball down and the line just happens to be on top, that's fine, as long as you didn't fidget it into position.  If you do, you've placed a mark to indicate a line for putting.  

Or, if it is pointing in the required, you can still aviod a penalty if you do not possess the required mens rea.

Yes.  And the test is pretty damn simple.  Overt fidgeting to get it into position creates a res ipsa loquitur violation.  

So it would benefit one wishing to use a "cheating line" to be efficient in her/her proper placement of the ball?  Once one is inefficient, they would be subject to this Hitlerian interpretation.

Back to your first comment, the words read, "if YOU place a mark." - Titleist placed the mark, not me....so I'm cool right?

[JESII]

Am I reading your logic correct Shivas...any time the ball is placed on the green with the intent to assist with allingment the player is in violation of rule ###.

Is this what you are saying?

[Tim Pitner]

What a horrible game competitive golf would be if your strict interpretation of this rule were followed.  Amazingly, it would probably be worse than what we saw yesterday on the tube.

Ryan,

Can you explain these comments?  

[JESII]

8-2 Indicating Line of Play

 a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green , a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.
Exception: Flagstick attended or held up — see Rule 17-1.
 

b. On the Putting Green

When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting. [/u]

Penalty for Breach of Rule:

Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.

You should be ashamed...you are a lawyer and you read the above as having anything to do with the golf ball. It has only to do with the putting surface.




Also, for your note...

20-3a/2 Trademark Aimed Along Line of Putt When Ball Replaced


Q. When a player is replacing his ball, is it permissible for him to position the ball so that the trademark is aimed along the line of putt to indicate the line of play?

A. Yes.

The jig is up...

[JR Potts]

Using your logic then (as I just read the thread), it isn't a violation of the letter of the rule if Titleist puts the mark on the ball --- but it is if you put the mark on the ball?

No.  That's somebody else's logic.  My logic is simple, and happens to follow the rule:  while your ball is on the putting green, if you place a mark (any mark, regardless of who generated it and when) to indicate a line for putting, you violated 8-2(b).  If you don't, you don't.

Let me disect this statement.

1) While your ball is on the green

2) If you place a mark

3) to indicate a line for putting

The way I read your interpretation of the rule, you are only in violation if you PLACE the mark WHILE the ball is on the green.  Your arument fails as the mark is already on the ball.   Moreover, the mark was placed on the ball for identification, it just happens that one may use it for alignment.

[JESII]

Shivas...whhhheeere aaaarrre yooouuu?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Player's can use aids to alignment. You can place a club down to line yourself up for a stroke, or lay it across your shoulders, waist, etc..

I can't see how a line on the ball could thwart the intended challenge of a green. It won't read the break nor help with gauging the speed, and it surely won't aid you in regulating the length, speed, or tempo of your stroke. This is probably why the USGA doesn't specifically ban the practice from the rules and it probably wouldn't do so if greens became flatter.

Who likes 15' putts that look straight?  

[Adam Clayman]

I for one am damn glad we don't play the game under the Shivas's rulebook.

It would end up using as much paper as the federal budget.

[John Goodman]

Shivas -

Aren't the lines on the top or back of the putter equally verboten (assuming you are paying attention to them when deciding the line)?  If not, why not?

John

[Michael Moore]

Shivas -

What would you say to someone who told you that he was lining up his line in order to indicate the line on which he should swing his putter back?

[John Goodman]

Shivas -

Aren't the lines on the top or back of the putter equally verboten (assuming you are paying attention to them when deciding the line)?  If not, why not?

John

See Reply #22 to George Pazin...

Sorry, I missed that.

But I'm not altogether buying it.

If you place the putter along your intended line and use the line on the putter as an aid - everybody who has a putter with a line on it does this, and in fact that's the whole reason the manufacturer put the line on the putter in the first place -then you are "placing" a "mark" to "indicate a line for putting."

Seems to me that to be consistent you need to be railing on those cheatin' putters too.    

[JESII]

I'll assume this is your best Barney impersonation because if you were giving an intellectually honest interpretation of rule 8-2 you would realize that "mark" can and does have a variety of meanings...hell, just look at 8-2(a) where these "marks" can be placed but must be removed prior to the play of a stroke.

What do you make of that use of the term "mark"?

I suspect you will fall back on something along the lines of "the USGA is just stupid and should learn how to write legalese...

[John Goodman]

OK Dave, I think you might be right about the distinction between ball lines and putter lines, but it's unrelated to intent.  When you make your stroke, the line on the putter has been removed (like your caddy pointing out the line for you before you putt), whereas the cheater ball line is still sitting there during the stroke, showing you the way.  The putter line no longer indicates a line for putting once the player starts the stroke.  Yes?

(Although I do tend to agree with JES that 8-2(b) seems on its face to be about placing marks on the putting surface, rather than on the ball or on equipment.)

John

[JohnV]

Dave,

The original wording of the rule in 1744 is:

No man, at Holing his Ball, is to be allowed to mark to the hole with his Club or anything else.

As I read that it means a mark on the ground, not on the ball.

You can argue you it all you want, but the real rules expert is the brother of the man who runs this site and I guarantee he would tell you that you are wrong and just making a lot of noise as is usual for you.
 

I am also a person who also likes to see nothing but white when I'm putting.