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Tommy Williamsen

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It is enough to make you cry
« on: May 13, 2007, 09:07:29 PM »
Sean O'Hair goes into 17 two shots back and leaves six back.  Still think 17 is a good 71st hole?
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Jeremy_Glenn.

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 09:11:55 PM »
Yes, for two reasons:

- For precisely the reason you mention...

- For the fact that we can't help talking about the 17th...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 09:12:37 PM by Jeremy Glenn. »
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Jim Johnson

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 09:12:17 PM »
He hits 9 iron when he should have hit wedge. Seemed like a bunch of guys were hitting wedge into there today. He goes into 17 pumped up, and simply hits the wrong club. If he hits wedge, and puts the same swing on that ball, with the line he chose, he's putting for birdie.

He learned something the hard way. Unfortunately it cost him $750,000.00  :-\

JJ
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Bill Gayne

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 09:22:03 PM »
You can't judge the hole based on what happened to O'hair today. By using the same criteria one would judge the Road Hole at the Old Course as bad after Duval imploded in 2000. O'hair simply wasn't ready to win today.


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PThomas

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 09:22:19 PM »
he sure was slow....and their groups was advised to watch their pace

kudos to Phil, the guy keeps coming back...two thirds and a win since he went to Butchie Boy
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kurt bowman

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2007, 09:24:24 PM »
Yes he may play a little slow, but not near as excruciating as Sergio a few years ago or Ben Crane.

I think you have to admire that he took it right at the stick on #17 TWICE. Some people may call it stupid, but I say he played to win. We need more American golfers like him.
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Sean Leary

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2007, 09:27:11 PM »
as soon as it said 9 iron on the screen, I thought "Oh no". Everyone was hitting wedge and he is all pumped up. No good...
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RJ_Daley

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 10:01:44 PM »
Which brings us to the question, what do you do with your caddie who is your daddy in-law?  Would Bones have allowed PHil to hit a 9 Iron without a fight?  And, since Phil hit wedge, and since S O'H pretty much was longer on every shot of equal club all day... what is up with that?
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Tim Bert

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 10:06:06 PM »
His play didn't diminish the hole in my mind.  He had to make an extremely aggressive play to try to get himself back in place to have a chance to win (unless he was satisfied with second and he clearly stated in his post-game interview that he wasn't playing for second.)  He picked the wrong club and aimed at the wrong part of the green.  Had he either selected the right club or played at the fat part of the green, then he wouldn't have finished so far back.  Those were his choices.  Sure, the hole magnifies the bad decisions x 10, but I don't see why his play would change anyone's mind that has been watching the tournament for years.  You either like it or you don't.
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Tim Bert

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 10:07:54 PM »
It was nice to see Mickelson back off the driver on #18, even with a huge safety net lead.

How much would Harmon love for him to make a run at #1 in the world over the next 2 to 3 years?
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 10:14:34 PM »
17 may be the most exciting hole in championship golf.  Today confirmed it.  The player needs fortitude, ability to balance risk/reward, control distance, direction, and his nerves.
My only thought is, "Does the punishment for a poor shot fit the crime?"
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

RJ_Daley

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 10:17:34 PM »
What do you figure went through Phil the thrill's mind while ball is in flight, when he follows up the right drive with a 6-I that starts to fade into the drink - misses by 8"?  :o :-X :-\  
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Joe Hancock

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 10:21:46 PM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on May 13, 2007, 10:14:34 PM
My only thought is, "Does the punishment for a poor shot fit the crime?"

Tommy,

At this level of play, and at the short distance they're playing the hole...yes. Also, O'hair said he was going for broke, so to speak. He was two shots out and needed to take aim...and it cost him with his execution. Remember, we're talking wedges and nine irons in the hands of professionals here...

Joe
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 10:22:44 PM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on May 13, 2007, 10:17:34 PM
What do you figure went through Phil the thrill's mind while ball is in flight, when he follows up the right drive with a 6-I that starts to fade into the drink - misses by 8"?  :o :-X :-\  

I could not believe Phil hit that shot.  9" more to the left and we would be talking about a differrent subject matter.  Water is exciting. On the other hand,  I do grow tired of its overuse.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 10:23:48 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 10:26:38 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on May 13, 2007, 10:21:46 PM
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on May 13, 2007, 10:14:34 PM
My only thought is, "Does the punishment for a poor shot fit the crime?"

Tommy,

At this level of play, and at the short distance they're playing the hole...yes. Also, O'hair said he was going for broke, so to speak. He was two shots out and needed to take aim...and it cost him with his execution. Remember, we're talking wedges and nine irons in the hands of professionals here...

Joe

Joe,  You have to hand it to O'Hair for his boldness.  He knew the consequences.  I agree.  The punishement fit the crime.  If he had pulled the shot off we would not be having this discussion.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Bert

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2007, 10:27:14 PM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on May 13, 2007, 10:17:34 PM
What do you figure went through Phil the thrill's mind while ball is in flight, when he follows up the right drive with a 6-I that starts to fade into the drink - misses by 8"?  :o :-X :-\  

Probably something like "Great!  I'm probably still going to win this tournament because I've got strokes to give, but I'm going to have to listen to countless doubters continue on and on about how I still can't play the pressure shots down the stretch - even when there is no pressure."

I'm glad to see him playing so well.  Fairways and greens is not the Phil with which we've all been familiar, but it sure looked pretty good this week.

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RJ_Daley

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2007, 10:34:53 PM »
Quote
I just wonder whether the same thing couldn't be accomplished with the most elevated volcano green and ridiculously steep dropoffs all around it...

Dave, that is almost the "boxcar hole" at Lawsonia.  Only, the left and back left isn't so steep.  About 2/3rds of the green is steep sloped as you describe.  Of course, the difference is at Lawsonia you still have the fun high flopper to get up to the putting surface rather than don the scuba gear...  ;) ;D
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Phil McDade

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2007, 10:46:24 PM »
Dick:

You beat me to the punch! The famed 7th at Lawsonia -- although I'll note my buddy once lost (!!) a ball on the side the boxcar hole there because it was so thick. How would you mow it to Pinehurst #2-like thinness?
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Phil McDade

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2007, 10:50:04 PM »
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 13, 2007, 10:44:37 PM
I'm thinking about 2X that dropoff...maybe 3X

Are you really serious? By my estimation, short right at the boxcar is at least 20-30 feet up to the green. A 20/30-yard straight uphill shot? Is that maintainable, from an agronomy standpoint?
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RJ_Daley

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2007, 10:55:12 PM »
Phil, I don't think one could safely mow the slopes to FW or aproach-collar length.  But, I did once hit one of my best shots from down there, a flopper to about 3' of pin.  

Really, I think Shivas is on to something.  Vulcano greens with steep fall offs all round, with the fun factor of recovering, is a more attractive theme than dead in the water.  

ooops, Ducks just won... Go Wings!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 10:55:52 PM by RJ_Daley »
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Phil McDade

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2007, 11:05:47 PM »
Dick:

I am headed to Eagle Springs sometime this year for a round and pictures at the old nine-hole course there, which has a truly volcano par 3 with the green perched atop a glacial drumlin. Hope to do a compare/contrast with the boxcar hole.

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John Kavanaugh

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2007, 11:25:35 PM »
What made me cry was Harmon's attention whoring hug of Flop aftter the tournament.  It was so highschool, just like the little bitch that bags the quarterback and holds hands in the hallway after the big game.  
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 11:48:10 PM by John Kavanaugh »
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Glenn Spencer

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2007, 12:36:19 AM »
I didn't see the post-round interviews, so don't kill me too much, but why didn't O'Hair play 16 more aggressively? 2 down and Mickelson is pin high and you try to hit it right next to him? Why not take a chance at 16? You know where the pin is going to  be on 17? I applaud him for taking the chance on 17, but if the money was a factor, I don't feel bad for him. If you are trying to lock up second and go for the win, shoot at 16 and not 17. What is up lately with the Tour? Goosen, Ken Duke hits 3-wood down 2 with a 2 stroke cushion for second on a par 5 after Watney hit iron. Eagle ties most likely. Maybe they are playing for TOO much money.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 12:37:29 AM by Glenn Spencer »
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Chris Perry

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2007, 01:56:52 AM »
The hole itself shouldn't be blamed for the O'Hair fiasco, the flatstick lost the tourney for him (like it usually does when it comes down to it) before he even walked onto the 17th tee and it essentially dictated for him what he had to do there.

Phil kept it interesting with misses of his own on the holes previous and Sean just couldn't get his to drop when Phil missed. If tied, it's pretty much a guarantee he plays for the center of 17 instead of the pin.  

Perhaps it's not the hole itself that's the problem, but where they put the pin on Sunday? Maybe switch it with Thursday and you won't have guys airmailing the green at the 71st tee when in contention?

Props to O'Hair for actually trying to win a tournament with a gutsy play instead of wussing out for a bigger paycheck.
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Brad Klein

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Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2007, 04:23:42 AM »
JK

I think you could not be more wrong on your call about Butch Harmon. He wasn't greenside; he was behind the stands, on the walkway near the clubhouse, and it was not mugged for the cameras. I know you are incapable of acknowledging genuine feelings between people, but that was an example.

As for Bones "letting" Mickelson do anything, it's always Phil's call. Witness his play Saturday on the 10th hole from the bunker through the trees -- a line he admitted he was "afraid" to tell Bones about because he knew Bones wouldn't like the line. Yes, it was great to watch him play smart off the 72nd tee.

As for O'Hair playing bold, he got himself into a pinch by missing all of those relatively short birdie putts on 11, 12, 15 and 16 and really did have to force the issue after Phil landed safely on 17.
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