Are Turbo Boosts lost on the aerial game ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 15th hole at Sleepy Hollow has a wonderful turbo boost short of the punchbowl green.

In examining the angle of the incline it appeared that the lower the trajectory the more effective the turbo boost.

Since the hole was designed when ball flight was much lower I wondered if features like this provided an advantage to the less skilled golfer, assuming he was aware of their function, or just lucky.

A different kind of turbo boost was located on the 11th hole in the DZ.

The hole is a dogleg right.
This turbo boost was a tier like structure that would direct a low shot to the center of the fairway, or even the right center of the fairway.

Low drives were greatly aided by this feature, while high trajectory drives would encounter it less and perhaps not be influenced as much.

Have turbo boosts lost their architectural significance due to the aerial nature of the game today ?

What modern clubs have substantive turbo boost ?

[Scott Szabo]

I believe Sand Hills has the turbo boosts that you speak of - #1, #14 and #16 immediately come to mind.

Augusta had many of them in the old days, but I'm not sure how many are still as much in play as they used to be.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

I'd view the ones you mentioned as more a product of the downhill terrain rather than a constructed turbo boost that's on flat or slightly inclined land.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I learned at Sebonack that Jack Nicklaus particularly likes to give a turbo boost to a good drive.

Unfortunately, his definition of a good drive is one which has carried a bunker 265-285 yards off the tee, so I don't get much help from them.

[paul cowley]

....its interesting that we [Love] try to shy away from that  type of boost....one that only enhances the long hitter's shot farther.

We perceive it as a fairness thing for the rest of the field.

[Dan Herrmann]

Turbo boosts are one of the cool things about playing golf with Laura, who's a 20-ish handicapper.  She plays the ground game much more than the guys, and you can see the genius of Hanse's countours by watching her fairway roll-outs.

It was especially great watching her play Pacific Dunes.  There's a lot of great ground game there, and the fescue fairways makes them even more advantegous.  Only problem is that you'll never discover them all playing a couple of times every several years

Same thing for Thompson's Highlands Links, although the fairways are nowhere near as "fast" as PD.

In fact, watching these roll-outs has helped me discovered previously unknown turbo boost areas.

[Tom_Doak]

One of the best ones I've ever seen is on the eighth hole at Royal Portrush.  It's about 180 yards off the tee, and if a short hitter catches it just right, with a bit of fade, their drive can wind up right alongside a bigger hitter who blasts it over the corner.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott,

I'd view the ones you mentioned as more a product of the downhill terrain rather than a constructed turbo boost that's on flat or slightly inclined land.

I would agree with your statement.  However, I think it was genius of C & C to incorporate these slots in their routing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

I'd agree.
Certainly, well placed drives get additonal rewards.

Paul Cowley,

Why can't they be used to equalize the advantage of the long hitter every now and then ?

What was interesting about the 11th at Sleepy Hollow wasn't so much that it propelled balls forward, rather that it directed balls along the line of the dogleg, thus a low running drive was guided by the terrain to the optimum locations in the fairway.

Tom Doak,

I'm trying to recall the terrain over the carry over the bunker on # 18 at Pacific Dunes.  Does it propel the ball in a favorable direction at any point ?

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Is the Nicklaus carry yardage from the middle tees or the tips?
Mark

[paul cowley]

Patrick.....you are correct in that we could [should] combine at times downslopes before the landing area, with deadening slopes beyond......but probably not a lot.

We wouldn't want to make this game too fair.

[Jeff Doerr]

Tom Doak,

I'm trying to recall the terrain over the carry over the bunker on # 18 at Pacific Dunes.  Does it propel the ball in a favorable direction at any point ?

I think that turbo would boost you into the right side bunker!

I like the drive on #6 at Bandon Trails. If you hit a draw off the centerline bunker you can have a wedge in.

A side note is the rising use of 3 woods to draw the ball, as the new drivers tend to hit high power fades...

[TEPaul]

Pat:

To the extent that big hitters today carry the ball in the air so much farther than they did 10-15 years ago I don't know that the question of whether turbo boosts are lost on the aerial game is that relevent.

With any turbo boost on any particular hole the question is does it function well enough for enough golfers? Obviously tees are very relevent to this as the turbo boost area should be in the right place for greatest amount of golfers.

The turbo boost which probably isn't more than about 220 off the back tee that still works very well is on the 11th fairway at Pine Valley. One can scoot a drive down that turbo boost and end up in approximately the same spot as a bigger hitter who carries the ball app 50-60 yards farther and lands it on the gentle upsolope on the far end of the fairway.

That turbo boost and its distance position on that fairway is one of the best "levelers" I've ever seen between a short hitter and a longer hitter.

At GMGC we have a few excellent turbo boosts on #12, #15 and #18 and a very good "anti" turbo boost on #13 and #18, and an interesting diagonal "anti" turboe boost on #7.

The best turbo boost in the universe would have been on a landform at Ardrosson Farm and now it appears it will never be built.

With that one if a golfer managed to carry the ball down the extreme right side of the fairway about 300 yards the ball would not stop running for the next 200 or so yards until it found itself to the right and way below a high ridgeline green. From there the shot up to the green (very shallow from that direction) would be very scary. If it was short it would come back to you. If it was long you'd be dead far down the other side.

But the natural turbo boost on that landform was the biggest and most powerful I've ever seen.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat-

  The right side of #4 at GCGC allows the player who finds it to gain exta yardage as well.  When the wind is from the west, the player can sometimes go for #4 in 2 shots.  

The topography of Huntingdon Valley provides for several, for example, on #6 (A nine) and #16 (B nine) and I seem to recall Kyle pointing a few others out to me.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Most "punchbowl" greens that I've played have this feature.

I believe that even the difficult 6th hole at The Creek has it.

This allows for creative play.

# 15 at Sleepy Hollow has it
# 16 at NGLA
# 1 at Montclair (4th 9)

I wonder how many other punchbowl greens have the turbo boost ramp fronting or to the side of the green.

The Reverse Redans at The Creek, LACC North and Sleepy Hollow also  have the feature.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I'm not sure I'd call some green approaches turbo boosts but I guess they could be that.

Obviously one of the best turbo boost areas is that speed slot on the right side of the 10th fairway at ANGC. I saw it in person this year and it certainly is a huge fairway contour and an excellent one.

This type of thing is one of the really fine features in golf architecture, in my opinion. The best of it can be called "gravity" golf, and obviously works most effectively with F&F.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Certainly the 4th at Westhampton could be considered a turbo boost..... Unfortunately I can't find my pictures of that hole.

[Tony_Muldoon]

This is Colt/Alison’s third at Thorndon Park.  Anyone who hits a draw that lands close to the lake can gain a 60 yard advantage over someone playing safe.   It still works today, even if it now offers less of a reward for the really skilled rather than the solid striker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Certainly the 4th at Westhampton could be considered a turbo boost..... Unfortunately I can't find my pictures of that hole.

Tommy,

Are you sure that you don't mean the 3rd hole ?

[Greg Tallman]

Tom,
Is the Nicklaus carry yardage from the middle tees or the tips?
Mark

Mark,

The "turn point" on Nicklaus courses is now at 287 yards form the back tee with all strategy based from this point. I have not seen any "turbo boosts" or "speed slots" at a much shorter yardage allowing the powder puffs (me) to sneak one out there with the big boys.

[Greg Tallman]

Patrick:

I learned at Sebonack that Jack Nicklaus particularly likes to give a turbo boost to a good drive.

Unfortunately, his definition of a good drive is one which has carried a bunker 265-285 yards off the tee, so I don't get much help from them.

Tom Doak,

Is this, "turbo boosts" well short of a conventional "turn point", a feature that you have consciously included or excluded in your previous design work? Or perhaps only if it fit perfectly into the natural terrain?

Seems that the left side of either 12 or 13 at Bay of Dreams could have incorporated such a feature ala #10 at ANGC... but after our tour I gathered it would be more of a trouble spot than a fairway feature???

A good example here at CDS would be Weiskopf's 13th hole on The Desert Course... slotted down the right side, nearest the trouble, If hit perfectly in the proper direction I can add as much as 50 yards to my otherwise ladylike tee ball... something nice on a 480 yard par 4, into the wind.  

[Mark_Fine]

Greg,
I thought Nicklaus was setting tees for example say 7300 yards from the tips and 6500 yards from the middle.  If that is the case, wouldn't those turbo boosts come into play if you are playing the middle tees or are you a real powder puff  

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,
I thought Nicklaus was setting tees for example say 7300 yards from the tips and 6500 yards from the middle.  If that is the case, wouldn't those turbo boosts come into play if you are playing the middle tees or are you a real powder puff  

Mark,

I was referring to my playing from the back with guys of "tour distance" alongside which I am certainly a powder puffer. They carry it 290 and get added distance from some so called speed slots... while I am VERY lucky if I can hit it perfect and get within a few yards of where the feature begins.

Can't bring myself to play from 6500 yard tees unless it is to accommodate playing companions and then I take it less than serious unless there is something on the line. Sucks to get old, have a job, other interests... and oh yeah marginal talent!

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