[Matt_Cohn]

While watching The Players I started thinking about #17. Love it or hate it, the fact is that it's one of the most influential holes ever built. Almost every island green in the world is derivative to that single hole.

The only similar example I can think of is #18 at Pebble Beach, as almost every sweeping dogleg around water is derivative to that one. (Think Sawgrass, Doral, #6 at Bay Hill, etc. and all of *their* derivatives).

I don't think template holes fit this category. Biarritzes and Redans have been copied lots of times but they haven't created complete shifts in architectural philosophy. (Have they?)

What else belonds in the same category as #17 at Sawgrass and #18 at Pebble?

[Brad Klein]

Great topic.

4th at National Golf Links of America (more than 15th at North Berwick)

11th at St. Andrews

17th at St. Andrews

13th at Augusta National

17th at TPC Sawgrass

14th at Muirfield Village

13th at Harbour Town

12th at Augusta National

10th at Riviera

[Ryan Crago]

Matt,

would the 1st at Machrihanish supersede the 18th at Pebble?

and let me add TOC 16th... boundary hole with centreline bunker.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

It is a great topic!

The 14th on the Old Course--The Long Hole In. If you were to look up strategy in the Websters dictionary, there should be a diagram of the 14th.

The 5th a Friar's Head--A soon to be legendary short 2-shot hole in the making.

[Scott Szabo]

Matt,

When you say the most influential holes in architecture, do you mean the ones that are replicated the most or something along different lines?

Scott

[Pete Lavallee]

Tommy,

By influential, I think Matt means holes which have been copied frequently, like the island green. Can you name any holes which were designed with Long Hole In in mind?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy:

I understand that #5 Friar's Head must be a great golf hole, but how can a hole so few see be influential, at least so soon?

The same of course could be said about any private club that doesn't host viewable tournaments... but some have a long time to be seen (thus NGLA works).  But new private clubs?  Hmmmmm..... can't see this working.  So as much as I also believe there are holes at Sand Hills that COULD be influential, I can't nominate any from there either.

So toward this end, thinking that to be influential a hole most be widely seen... allow me to nominate:

#6 Pacific Dunes
#4 Spyglass (and I know it tries to copy a hole at Pine Valley, but again it gets seen, the PV hole doesn't)

Any particular hole at Wild Horse or Rustic - giving examples to others of how firm and fast and wide can work.....

And I know none of these have been widely copied yet, but I believe they are starting to be, and will be more and more so as time marches on.....

[Brad Klein]

Tommy,

as usual you mistake your preferences for true greatness!

Friar's Head is still too young to have been influential, whereas the three short 4s I've listed (you could add some others, but there aren't that many equally influential ones) have already had a decided impact.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad:

Great minds.    But isn't another part of why no hole at Friar's Head can be that influential yet - and will take a LONG time to be so if it ever is - is due to the very private nature of the club?

[Brad Klein]

Huck, now I have to rethink everything, since we agree completely on that topic.

[KBanks]

#5 at Mid Ocean, the preeminent Cape hole.

Ken

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck, now I have to rethink everything, since we agree completely on that topic.

I was going to suggest that as well.  Sorry man.
 

BTW, how about in a looking forward way the 288 yard par 3 at Oakmont?  It's not influential now but after the US Open, if it works, we may see a lot more being built in that yardage range....

[Mark Bourgeois]

What about Woking 4th?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

A soon to be legendary short 2-shot hole in the making.

That is my prediction, that it will be influential. Yes it might be somewhat biased, but I'll over-look what kind of bias any day!

[Dan_Callahan]

7th hole, Pine Valley.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - gotcha - fine correction.  But do you really think it will be influential "soon", given so few see it, even in pictures?

[Bob Jenkins]

I would have thought the most influential holes are those with unique characteristics that are subsequently adopted or borrowed.

In that regard, I would not have thought of the 17th at TPC Sawgrass as influential for its island green. I am sure there were previous island greens. The par 5 17th at Cherry Hills comes immediately to mind and I am sure there were others, par 3s included, that preceded 17. What I think makes it influential is the theatre atmosphere, not necessarily being an island green. The 16th? at TPC Scottsdale, although not an island green, replicates a similar atmosphere as 17 at Sawgrass.

Likewise I do not see how the Road Hole has been influential. Not many courses have a tee shot over railway barns and a paved road and wall running behind the green. NGLA has a hole inspired by it in a general sense. How has it been influential? Bunkering?

I would have thought that a hole like #10 at Riviera would be much more influential, being a reachable, downhill, risk / reward par 4.

I love #4 Spyglass. To me, it is the long, tiered diagonal green running between sand dunes that makes it especially unique. As far as it being influential, I cannot say I know of attempts to copy it although I would like to see similar holes. I am sure most of you have seen a lot more than me and can say if it has been influential and if so, what is the evidence?

Re #6 Pacific Dunes, I love the entire course but do not think it has been around long enough to have been influential.

Bob Jenkins

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Yes, I think it will be come to appreciated very quickly, especially once the club appears even more on the access radar once the clubhouse is finished. It is for the most part, a killer of a golf hole that leaves you feeling the same as Rivera #10. It has you thinking that birdie is in your hands, pissed-off you got a par and thrilled you saved Bogie. It's that kind of golf hole.

The two holes look nothing alike.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy:  again gotcha.  I just was under the impression it would NEVER get on the access radar.  And no, I have no plans to go east myself any time in the forseeable future.

 

From all I can see, I get that that hole sure could be influential.

[JC Urbina]

I believe that the 10th hole at Highlands Country Club( Donald Ross 1926) was one of the most influential to me.  But because a lot of people may have not seen it, most would not consider it one of the greatest.  I try to use its set up in many ways.

[Doug Ralston]

After reading about their relationship and shared ideas, I'd say Alice Dye  

Doug

[Tom_Doak]

Jim is always trying to come up with something different.  I'll let him deal with that.

If we are trying to name holes which have often been imitated, then I can't agree with Brad's choices of #10 at Riviera or #13 at Harbour Town.  Perhaps they have had some influence on the renaissance of the short par-4 in general, but I certainly haven't seen a lot of close copies of either hole ... most courses cannot abide a green so small and severe for practical reasons, and without those small greens, neither is truly a great hole.

I would nominate the 18th at Doral, the long par-4 with-water-left finishing hole.  Yes, it probably derives in part from the 18th at Pebble Beach and the 5th at Mid Ocean, but just as Brad reasoned that the 4th at National was more influential than the real Redan, I think the 18th at Doral put that type of finisher on the map, before the finishing holes at Harbour Town and TPC Sawgrass cemented the deal.  Plus, it was the first of those holes I can think of where the pond was man-made.

I would agree with the nomination for the 7th at Pine Valley, a form of which was included on many Tillinghast and Flynn courses.

[Cliff Hamm]

The 4th at Baltusrol.  Par 3 over water with stone wall.  Substitute railroad ties if you like.  Was this the first or was there an earlier hole that had a pond with a wall separating the water from the green?

[Jeff Doerr]

How 'bout The Postage Stamp?

[jim_lewis]

Perhaps there were others before it, but the 16th at Harbour Town was the first hole I remember seeing that featured a large waste bunker (in play). You see them often today.

jim lewis

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