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Kalen Braley

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2007, 11:48:02 AM »
I think the underlying part of Tigers statement that is going overlooked. He is trying to plant seeds to get the organizers of the tourney to switch the 9s for future players champointships, because it would be the 8th hole then.

If #9 were the new #18 for future tournies that could be a fun par 5 to end it on, especially now that those guys are starting to reach that green in 2.  After all Tiger is the "EF Hutton" of the tour right?  When he speaks, the tour leaders listen....even when they claim they aren't, behind close doors they really are.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 11:48:25 AM by Kalen Braley »

Mark Arata

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2007, 11:59:42 AM »
They are not going to change the nines no matter what Tiger says, he is going to play the tournament no matter what, because it has prestige and a top field, and from a tv standpoint, you have eagle potential on 16 and double bogey potential on 17 and 18......that's drama, and that is what they want for the fans and the tv cameras..

Personally, I think 18 is far more dangerous than 17....you have a short iron in your hand on 17 and a fairly huge green to shoot at, on 18, you have driver, and the entire left side is water......more danger with a driver than a wedge for a tour pro I would think......
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Dan Moore

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2007, 12:09:54 PM »
That is precisely why its a great hole where it is.  

As Pete Dye said:  "When you get those dudes thinking they're in trouble."  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Rick Shefchik

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2007, 12:59:01 PM »
If the 17th were something other than a golf hole -- i.e., some bizarre skills challenge, like breaking a pane of glass on "The Big Break" -- I'd be more sympathetic.

But it's just golf. Precise golf, nerve-wracking golf, unforgiving golf -- but golf.

And where it comes in the round, and in the tournament, is a big part of its challenge. Name another 17th hole that the average golf fan remembers. Pebble Beach? Maybe. Augusta National? Not really. Maybe TOC. That's about it.

I don't think Tiger's really complaining. A showman like him certainly understands how much money that hole has meant to the Tour.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

BCrosby

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2007, 02:53:36 PM »

Before anyone gets too carried away with the virtues of the 17th, I suggest you play it with a group of 18 handicappers. Golfers with average handicaps on the handicap bell curve.

Try as they might, some will be unable to finish the hole. And thus unable to post a score for their round. The way the USGA says they are supposed to.

How is that a well designed hole?

Bob


Geoffrey Childs

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2007, 03:02:50 PM »

Before anyone gets too carried away with the virtues of the 17th, I suggest you play it with a group of 18 handicappers. Golfers with average handicaps on the handicap bell curve.

Try as they might, some will be unable to finish the hole. And thus unable to post a score for their round. The way the USGA says they are supposed to.

How is that a well designed hole?

Bob



Bob- Equitable stroke control. Take their double or triple and move on to 18.

I think its a great finish on a course built precisely for this championship.  As others have mentioned, its a big green and to hit it with a PW to 8 iron should be automatic for those guys if the nerves are in check.  Though its a course built specifically for this championship the tourists and resort golfers will flock to it and pay big $$$ to be humiliated just the same as they want to maintain the US Open fairway widths and play the back tees at Bethpage Black.

Jerry Kluger

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2007, 04:05:57 PM »
I think that the 17th is an unfortunate distraction from some really good architecture.  The 16th was a great risk/reward par 5 and I hope that the changes will bring it back from being a long par 4. The 18th is a great finishing hole for championship golf requiring some clutch shots and some very demanding recovery shots.  

Also, with all the hoopla surrounding 17, surprisingly, I remember very few disasters there by the leaders on Sunday.

Kalen Braley

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2007, 04:25:28 PM »
Len Mattice's name I think is burned into many viewers minds after his experience a few years back.  And he was in contention, jangled nerves just got the best of him.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2007, 07:31:20 PM »
Can you think of a 17th hole in golf that is better known than this? and more exciting for the tv viewer excluding the Road Hole.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Karl Bernetich

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2007, 08:19:10 PM »

Before anyone gets too carried away with the virtues of the 17th, I suggest you play it with a group of 18 handicappers. Golfers with average handicaps on the handicap bell curve.

Try as they might, some will be unable to finish the hole. And thus unable to post a score for their round. The way the USGA says they are supposed to.

How is that a well designed hole?

Bob


It's not the only hole like that!
There's a story about a lake, a bridge and a putter.
Same situation, high handicaper was bet he "couldn't recored a legit score - not matter how high."  Got to 15 and couldn't get across the water.  Running out of golf balls, asked the caddy (as a wise golfer should), "any ideas ?"  The caddy suggested he putt it across the bridge instead of hitting it over the lake.  Did just that and won the bet, the other 3 wanted to throw the caddy IN THE LAKE (some versions of the story say they did ...)

There's always a way !

Is it PC to say that some courses are not ment for 18 handicapers ?

BCrosby

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2007, 08:42:52 AM »
Geoff -

Being able to invoke equitable scoring so that handicap players can finish their round does not make up for inherent design problems.

No question it is fun to watch the pros play the 17th. It's like NASCAR. You bought your ticket to watch the crashes.  

It is no fun, however, to watch average golfers play the 17th. I have had the misfortune of playing the hole with several such groups. Especially when it is windy, which it almost always is in Ponte Vedra. The thrill soon turns to humiliation and then to resignation as they shuffle over to the 18th tee without having a putt.

Bob



 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 08:44:08 AM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2007, 09:00:15 AM »
I doubt there's ever been an architect who was so into intentionally attempting to humiliate golfers, and particularly very good ones, as Pete Dye. He's been remarkably vocal about it over the years and quite joyously so, I might add. One might even accurately say that fact and that reputation initially put Pete Dye on the map. I remember.

I could be wrong about this but I think I recall that the idea of the island green at TPC wasn't even Pete's idea---it was Alice's idea!  
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 09:05:13 AM by TEPaul »

Matthew Rose

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2007, 10:03:48 AM »

Karl - don't know if I'm thinking of the same thing you are, but I remember Golf Digest having a contest many years ago trying to find the worst golfer in America; they had narrowed it down to a foursome and they played the TPC from the tips. I recall the eventual "winner" taking about 20 balls in the lake before putting down the cart path.

From what I have read, the 17th was just going to be a normal, typical water par-3, probably something like the 13th. When excavating the site they found a large deposit of sand there that was too good to pass up, so they dug it out, doubled the size of the lake and it was then that the island idea was suggested.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Jim Nugent

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2007, 11:01:21 AM »
Wikipedia says Alice suggested the island green...

"According to the TPC Sawgrass website, the design came by accident. The original design for the 17th was to be a simple par-3 green only partially surrounded by a lake. However, the soil surrounding the 17th consisted of sand – necessary to build a good golf course, but rare on the otherwise swampy property – and by the time the course was near completion all the sand had been dug from the area, leaving a large crater. Pete Dye's wife, Alice, suggested the Island Green concept, remembering another course with a similar green; Dye was not thrilled at the idea but went ahead with it, in the process creating one of golf's most recognizable holes."

I've read this before.  

Adam Clayman

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2007, 11:10:16 AM »
Jim, Shaq had Pete's quote recently regarding the design evolution of that green. It refutes the wikipedia story by saying Pete wanted the back compartment to angle away from the player. Alice told Pete if he wanted 25 groups to back-up on that hole to go ahead and build it that way.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brent Hutto

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2007, 11:20:16 AM »
What manner of deal is this with "recovery" from a double bogey on the 71st hole of a tournament? I thought the reason a lot of tournament courses have Par 5's with water on the last hole is to provide a do-or-die finale to those in contention at the end of the week. Why is that a good idea and a do-or-die penultimate hole is bogus?

In medal play the only number that counts is the total for eighteen holes. The best defense against a ball in the water on Sunday is to play the rest of the round about eight under par. If they played the island-green hole as the #8 instead of #17 the best "recovery" would be to play the rest of the holes in about eight under par.

The later in the tournament a mental challenge occurs, the greater the choke factor. If you're presenting the best players in the world with a severe mental challenge (like playing the island green in a 20mph wind) then of course you want to present it as late in the tournament as possible to maximize the potential choke.

Why would a great player want it any other way? OK, yes it is a gimmick. But it's an effective gimmick with an important function in the tournament.

Doug Ralston

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2007, 11:58:20 AM »
Brent, let me quote a wise man;

GCA is either just the right place, or just the wrong place; to discuss this idea. For the idea is clearly the idea of 'fairness' again.

Tiger clearly envisions himself coming to #17 with a one stroke  lead over Phil on a day with erratic winds. Mickelson hits 1st, the wind is quiet, and Phil hits it to 12ft. Tiger steps up and the wind begins to gust this way or that, sometimes strong and sometimes not. How does he choose the correct moment? Does hit hit left and let the anticipated wind bring it back over the green? Or does he hope for a smaller wind and accept he must play it within the green's confines, with a 40ft putt if it does not blow while his ball is in the air?

All that fantasy is to say, Tiger wishes that, coming down the stretch, luck played a minimal part. #17 enhances the possible luck factors right at the point where every confident Pro believes it is his skill that should decide the issue.

You may, as many here do, think luck should play an enormous part in even professional golf at the highest levels. Or you may believe luck should be minimized, and skill maximized, as Tiger clearly does.

Wouldn't YOU though, if you had HIS skills?

Doug

THAT is why they wouldn't. The par-5 where you may or may not risk going across the water is an attempt to match your skill agaist the design. #17 at TPC is vastly more likely to involve random chance than the 'try for a safe landing' lakeside par-5. Those who KNOW their skill is superior wish to minimize the random [luck?] factor of golf. Not all agree, but you can hardly blame Tiger for thinking it.

Doug

Doug Ralston

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2007, 03:16:12 PM »
As of 3:15, 30 balls in the water at #17. Just an easy 9-iron ........

Yeah.

Doug
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 03:34:56 PM by Doug Ralston »

Doug Ralston

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2007, 07:07:42 PM »
When I played there, they had the tees over by the drop area, so we asked if we could go back and play it from in front of the hedges, like on TV, and they let us.

It was a routine 8 iron, and it wasnt really a hard shot at all.....I think it is cool that you think about that hole from the moment you step foot on the property, but you dont see it all until your 2nd shot on 16th... The puckering factor must be huge for a tournament, but if a hack like me can hit that green with no problems 3 times in 3 rounds, I dont see what the big deal should be to a tour pro......Just my opinion.....



Wow Mark!

I am impressed. Why are you not dominating the PGA Tour, where 46 people thus far of the best in the World have NOT found the green?

Yep, easy.  ::)

Doug

PS: Wish we could be there NOW. I would gladly wager you could NOT hit 3 of 3. Not saying you didn't or wouldn't, just how my wager would lean.

Marty Bonnar

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2007, 07:38:37 PM »
I hate Professional Golfers. I couldn't care less what they find 'hard' or 'easy'.
Seems to me the 17th at TPC only separates the ones who possess serious intestinal fortitude from the ones who don't.

I mean it's only a golf hole. But, it's one that RATHER NICELY separates the players who can control BOTH their ACCURACY and their DISTANCE control under the most tense of Tournament conditions from the ones who can't.

Seems fine to me. Must be worth a million bucks or so...great golf hole.

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Doug Ralston

Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2007, 07:49:51 PM »
Martin;

I am certain the Pros would care little for you too, if they knew you  :-*.

Great hole, but hardly indicative of 'intestinal fortitude'. These guys have to show courage in many situations to get where they are ..... all of them.

This hole represents a large 'random factor' in the tournament. If you like chance to play a large part in PGA golf, this is your baby. If you want to limit luck and accentuate skill, you would not cry if this hole was bulldozed and the dirt piled in Dye's front yard.

Great fun for us, though, who LOVE PGA golf and it's players.

Doug

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2007, 10:21:59 PM »
Mark Fine and I wrote extensively about fairness in our hazards book. I give Mark the bulk of the credit because he believed that so many clubs and golfers needed to hear about this important concept from the viewpoint of the designer.

In writing about TPC No. 17 — which I believe we FAIRLY presented — we related the following:

The story of the TPC at Sawgrass begins with former PGA Commissioner, Dean Beaman. His objective was simple: Build a home course to the pros which could serve as a constant site for a “5th Major.” Beaman also insisted that the course be conceived from the ground up to serve spectators. As inspiration he looked to Muirfield Village, a creation of Desmond Muirhead working with Jack Nicklaus. Beaman and the PGA settled on a site in Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida for this undertaking, and Pete Dye was enlisted to bring it to life.

According to Pete Dye in his book, Bury Me in a Pot Bunker, if he and his wife, Alice had not been on the scene to supervise construction, there would never have been such a green at the Stadium Course. The area of the 17th proved to contain the best sand on the site. The Dyes excavated this area clean, developing huge piles of sand which would later serve to cap fairways throughout the project. “The more we dug it out to use on the fairways, the deeper and wider the cavity became,” recalls Dye.

Many years before, Pete and Alice has played the Ponte Vedra Club, a 1932 design by Herbert Strong. “Such a hole was the farthest thing from my mind when we set the marker for...the seventeenth hole,” says Dye. But, with massive amounts of sand gone from the area, the Dyes conspired about the possibility.

With Beaman was on board with the idea, the Dyes went to work figuring out how to completely surround a green with water. Such issues as access, how much bail-out area and how large a lake to construct were all issues. Originally, the 17th was to have only a small lake to the left of the green. According to Dye, the green was about 26 yards deep and 30 yards wide when they were finished with the shape. A small pot bunker was set at the front of the simple shape.

Pete did not feel the hole would be all that difficult, so he intentionally sloped the green slightly away from the golfer toward the back. Alice, however, vetoed this, feeling that it was difficult enough without the fall-away slope. Pete conceded.

At first the 17th was met with critism, as were many parts of the Stadium Course. The spectator mounds themselves were the butt of many jokes. Unless you were there as a spectator the enormous mounds and gallery areas were seen as “blights on the landscape.” But it was difficult for a professional golfer—in fact, any golfer—to find fault with a short iron to a green of a about 6,000 s.f. What could be easier that hitting a wedge or 9-iron to a simple green? Sure, the stroke average for the 17th has approached 4.0 during PGA events, but what’s the beef? Not only is it a short iron, but you are able to tee your ball for a perfect “lie.”

The impact of the 17th is felt even before a golfer arrives at the first tee. For more than three agonizing hours our golfer is kept waiting in the wings. Finally, upon arriving at the edge of the lake, the tiny island must be faced. Among the ingenious aspects at play, including the very fact that the hole falls one from the last, is the ratio of land to water; the wooden bulkheads which so cleanly define land from water; and the edge of the putting surface, which seems dangerously close to the verticle edge.

For our purposes, the 17th is made famous by its history, its intrigue and it purity in terms of diabolical playfulness with the golfer’s mind...The Dyes took the simplest of concepts and brought it to an extreme. There is no namby-pamby bail-out, no slopes on which a ball might possible come to rest, and no hollows to catch a slightly off-line execution. Nothing but a platform of turf, an expanse of still water, and one small bunker for good measure.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tim Bert

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Re:Tiger "rips" TPC 17th.....
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2007, 11:35:30 PM »
I just heard the following statistic cited on TV: "Tiger has hit this green only 55% of the time he's played it."

Is this true?  I think that's a shocking number.  Do you think this is a contributing factor to his statements on #17?