How good is Kingsbarns?

[Robert Thompson]

Mark, there are a large number of wealthy visitors to St Andrews who play the Old Course, and want another upscale course to play where money is no object.  That is why Kingsbarns has been a success at that location.

I suspect part of the reason for building the No.7 course is to steal some of that "second course market" from Kingsbarns - the Links Trust figure that if big money is being spent, it might as well be at their facility!

Of course, No.7 will have to be very good to entice the Americans away from Kingsbarns.

From my brief walk around No. 7, my thoughts are that it will not touch Kingsbarns. The land is not nearly as good -- largely built on the side of a hill.

[John Sabino]

It good enough to host an Open Championship. The R & A should consider taking either Troon or Birkdale off the rota and putting Kingsbarns on.

[Eric Franzen]

I've had Kingsbarns on my must play list for a little while now.

I'm in Scotland with my (non golfing) daughter in late June and have a day free in the Dundee area and was considering my options as a singleton golfer (TOC being a siginificant possibility). Does anyone know if Kingsbarns accept tee time reservations from singles or (like TOC) do they have a policy of actively trying to match up singles to other groups?

No problem at all. Kingsbarns welcomes and accepts advance reservations from single players.

[Andrew Mitchell]

I've had Kingsbarns on my must play list for a little while now.

I'm in Scotland with my (non golfing) daughter in late June and have a day free in the Dundee area and was considering my options as a singleton golfer (TOC being a siginificant possibility). Does anyone know if Kingsbarns accept tee time reservations from singles or (like TOC) do they have a policy of actively trying to match up singles to other groups?

No problem at all. Kingsbarns welcomes and accepts advance reservations from single players.

Eric
Thanks for that. I'll contact Kingsbarns and see if they have tee times available.

[Brian Phillips]

Replacing a current course on the Rota is folly.

Totally agree.  Kingsbarns is fantastic but does not yet have the history to be allowed to be on the rota yet and anyway...it is designed by an American....god forbid.

[Rich Goodale]

I understand the love for Kingsbarns on here.  It is a really nice golf course and a great experience and setting. I like it well enough and respect the work done there.

But I am blown away by the number of you that put it in the top 5 or 10 in Scotland.  My reaction to that is that I simply need to find stronger drugs than Gin & T.

Replacing a current course on the Rota is folly.

Dr. V

Pleae list your 10 courses in Scotland that are better than Kingsbarns.  I think you will be struggling after #5......

Master G

PS--"Folly" is not the right word, "practicality" is.  The course is good enough to host an Open, but it won't, at least in our lifetimes.

[John Goodman]

I don't know about ten that are "better."  Ten I would rather play, if I'm going all the way to Scotland:

Dornoch
The Old Course
Muirfield
Carnoustie
North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Brora
Nairn
St. Andrews (New)
Royal Aberdeen

I've never seen any of the west coast courses, but I bet a few of them would be ahead of KB on the "rather play" list also.  KB is a course of considerable merit, I don't dispute it, but it's just not one of the main reasons to go to Scotland for golf.

[Rich Goodale]

John

Only three of your list are "rather plays" for me, but that's what makes horse races.

Rich

PS-that's just for the golf and regardless of cost (this is a golf course architecture website, non? ).  If I were travelling to Scotland and interested in the overall experience, and not just the golf, there are probably 50+ places I would rather play than Kingsbarns.

[John Goodman]

Yes, just the golf; and I tried hard to keep the greens fees out of it.  Though the freight at Kingsbarns tempts me to start making Shivas "old man value" arguments.

[Robert Thompson]

Nairn is nice, but isn't in the same league as Kingbarns -- nor is the New Course.

[Tom Dunne]

Mark, there are a large number of wealthy visitors to St Andrews who play the Old Course, and want another upscale course to play where money is no object.  That is why Kingsbarns has been a success at that location.

I suspect part of the reason for building the No.7 course is to steal some of that "second course market" from Kingsbarns - the Links Trust figure that if big money is being spent, it might as well be at their facility!

Of course, No.7 will have to be very good to entice the Americans away from Kingsbarns.

From my brief walk around No. 7, my thoughts are that it will not touch Kingsbarns. The land is not nearly as good -- largely built on the side of a hill.

I have heard otherwise, from a personage known and loved by many on this site, who toured the Castle course site recently. He said that "worst-case scenario, they will have a course the caliber of Kingsbarns."

But we shall see! I haven't been there (to #7), myself.

[Mark Chaplin]

Joseph - With the Open at TOC every 5 years it would be very difficult to understand why the R&A would need another venue so close by.

[Marty Bonnar]

Martin,

In all the rounds that you have been there how many times have you seen someone hit the stream?

Brian,
as I recall, on #6, about twice in maybe seven or eight hundred rounds (fourballs)....and both from waaaay overclubbed approaches. Neither of which was my golfer

Quite a few more on #16 - mabye 15 or 20.

i.e., both a LOT less than #18!!!

The Castle is certainly being pitched at a TOC price-point: £120

FBD.

[redanman]

Machrihanish*
Prestwick*
R Dornoch*
Brora
TOC*
Carnoustie*
King's @ Gleneagles*
HCEG*
NBWL*
Ailsa*

at the least

Whether or not the courses test the best players in the world is irrelevant to me.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Dr. V., but I didn't ask you about "rather plays," but (rather) about a "top 5 or 10," which is what you were argung previously.

[jg7236]

Chris,

I totally agree with you.  My father and I played their last September.  We loved the course!  It was definitely one of our favorites while we were in Scotland.  Below is the order I rated the courses we played.

1.) Old Course
2.) Kingsbarns/Gullane
3.) New Course
4.) Carnoustie

Cheers,

John

[G Jones]

I must be one of the anti-modern people...

Kingsbarns has some wonderful holes, but as a course it is let down by the style of the place. There are a number of holes that are meant to be linkslike but are so artificial it just looks odd. Classic links courses - from the flat of Carnoustie to the craziness of Cruden Bay - are still fairly "smooth" in their features... Kingsbarns is not... it's 'linksland' is over the top.

Even although most people couldn't point out exactly what makes the course look artificial, it's amazing how good the human eye is at sensing these things... Dunes and land that were shaped by the wind and sea look natural to us. When they are man made even the smallest things (such as being the wrong shape) can make dunes/hillocks look unnatural, even if you can't put your finger on the cause.

In addition, there are a number of holes there that just generally look odd... like the par 3 downhill (near the par 3 over the sea which is a great hole).

[Bob_Huntley]

I must be one of the anti-modern people...

Kingsbarns has some wonderful holes, but as a course it is let down by the style of the place. There are a number of holes that are meant to be linkslike but are so artificial it just looks odd. Classic links courses - from the flat of Carnoustie to the craziness of Cruden Bay - are still fairly "smooth" in their features... Kingsbarns is not... it's 'linksland' is over the top.

Even although most people couldn't point out exactly what makes the course look artificial, it's amazing how good the human eye is at sensing these things... Dunes and land that were shaped by the wind and sea look natural to us. When they are man made even the smallest things (such as being the wrong shape) can make dunes/hillocks look unnatural, even if you can't put your finger on the cause.

In addition, there are a number of holes there that just generally look odd... like the par 3 downhill (near the par 3 over the sea which is a great hole).

G.Jones,

You must have a very perceptive eye. What holes strike you as the most unnatural? I hope you don't say #18 as there was a hole there a couple of hundred years ago.

Bob

[Doug Bolls]

Play TOC, Royal Dornoch, Muirfield, Troon, North Berwick, Cruden Bay - IMHO Kingsbarns is an imitation.  It is so much too American - a complete fabrication - I have played it twice in that last 3 years - it does not hold a candle to the great classics in Scorland or Ireland  Nice try, but it's not there.
Doug Bolls

[Brian Phillips]

Even although most people couldn't point out exactly what makes the course look artificial, it's amazing how good the human eye is at sensing these things... Dunes and land that were shaped by the wind and sea look natural to us. When they are man made even the smallest things (such as being the wrong shape) can make dunes/hillocks look unnatural, even if you can't put your finger on the cause.

In addition, there are a number of holes there that just generally look odd... like the par 3 downhill (near the par 3 over the sea which is a great hole).

Many of the dunes there were shaped by wind and rain.  Dr. Robert Price consulted on the project and all of the dune like shaping is based on the type dunes you would find in that area if there had been dunes there in the first place.

Apparently many of the mounds were just pushed up and left to waste away over a winter.

The par 3 that you are talking about is the 8th.  Yes it is odd but isnt that what links golf is all about?

Doug,

What is so American about Kingsbarns apart from the clubhouse?

Brian

[Robert Thompson]

I think some of the remarks about Kingsbarns demonstrates a certain level of snobbery. If the course was 75 years old, and people weren't as aware the dunes were created, it would be heralded by many on this site who are now taking shots at it.

Kingsbarns is a delightful wide links with numerous shot options, something that is typically applauded on this site, but apparently is to its detriment in this case.

Perhaps it doesn't all come off 100 per cent of the time, but I find it fascinating that on another part of this site you'll see people holding up Chambers Bay as a fine course, when it, like Kingsbarns, was entirely created. And I doubt that project utilizied someone like Robert Price, who worked with Kingsbarns to try to make the dunes patterns as natural as possible.

The only real criticism I understand is the one about the price, but I think that is just a case of supply/demand economics. If the market wasn't willing to pay it, it wouldn't. The fact is many of my friends who make an annual trip to Scotland, and aren't as wrapped up in the nuances of "natural" vs. "unnatural" dunesscapes, head to the course every year. They love it and I must admit to always having had fun playing there in my five times around the course.

Does that make it great? In my estimation, yes.

[Jim Franklin]

Kingsbarns also has great chicken salad for the American that can't eat the other Scottish cuisine. I had to get a couple for the road.

As for the course, I thought it was terrific, but certainly not as fun as Pacific Dunes. Top 10 in Scotland certainly sounds reasonable to me.

[Chris Moore]

Martin:

My three favorite holes would be 4, 7, and 17.

My least favorite are probably 6 and 16, because I hate the use of a blind water hazard behind the green, no matter how many "options" the holes do give you.

Tom:  I am curious as to why you hate the use of a blind water hazard behind the green.  Could you explain?  Also, Are there other places on a course where blind water hazards are to be favored?

[Andrew Mitchell]

Just bumping this thread from a few weeks ago.

Sean Walsh and I have arranged a game at Kingsbarns on Wednesday 20th June teeing off at 1pm.  Any one out there care to join us?  Please reply on this thread or IM me.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris (if you're still around):  I missed your question back then.

I don't like blind water at all.  When it's behind the green, it's not the unfairness I despise (although you'll hear a lot of complaints on those grounds, too), but the fact that it plays so much on people's fears.  Uncertainty and difficulty are two factors which are appropriately combined (as in an occasional blind bunker), but uncertainty and death (by water hazard) is not a good combo.  Add to that the firm and windy conditions of Scotland, and you've got a hazard that comes into play unexpectedly often.

I believe that the old Scots agreed with me ... you hardly ever see a burn right behind the green on any of the great old links.