Strange until you realize fair means won't ruin my thoughless strategy/score

[Garland Bayley]

I played my first match of our match play at my club on Saturday. We have a nice creek running through 10, 11, 12, 13, and 17. My opponent claimed the creek was unfair and should be put underground (is that why Pumpkin Ridge and the Eagle Point pipe creeks underground). As I was more interested in beating him than debating him, I did not discuss. When we got to 17 a par 3 over both the irrigation pond and the creek, where you have to be more accurate to lay up over the pond short of the creek than to go for the green itself, I suggested that perhaps the creek was fine and the pond was the problem, preventing a nice lay up for short hitters. I was surprised that his response was still the creek was unfair even though everyone is forced to carry the pond and raw beginners like my wife hate the hole.

It finally seemed clear to me that the creek has screwed up his score too often and he wants it done away with.

Where do people get these ideas?

[Pat Brockwell]

A few years ago before my wife ritired from the public school system I was visiting her classroom and I noticed a banner in the hall that simply stated "YOU ARE SPECIAL!".  I asked her about it and she rolled her eyes and said it was a new "self esteem" initiative.  I think there is a link here Garland.  People think they are entitled to results, rather than believing they should earn their esteem via esteemable acts. Are we off topic?

[Pete_Pittock]

Garland,
  Perchance he is being bothered by the sun after recreating  so long in a bowling alley.
  The Cupp course at The Reserve has one creek which runs the width of the course and another which connects two three lakes and is 95% aboce ground. Which do you mean?
  Saturday I was playing with a 8 hdcp who hits a 3 wood 25 yards past my best drive. On #17 he mentioned that the woods between 2 &17 was unfair (usually lost or unplayable) and should be marked as a LWH (no water) or cleared and barked. My response was that it wasn't unfair to me because My best shot can't reach it.
  IMO it is just unrequited greed.

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Peter, I got my Oregon golf courses mixed up and have fixed the first post.

Greed could be another word for it.

Another shot he hit did not get passed the false front before returning to the area in the front of the green. He called that one unfair too.

Or maybe he was upset about getting beat. He even chewed out the cart girl.

[Garland Bayley]

A few years ago before my wife ritired from the public school system I was visiting her classroom and I noticed a banner in the hall that simply stated "YOU ARE SPECIAL!".  I asked her about it and she rolled her eyes and said it was a new "self esteem" initiative.  I think there is a link here Garland.  People think they are entitled to results, rather than believing they should earn their esteem via esteemable acts. Are we off topic?

Pat this guy makes me look like a spring chicken and if you are not reaching SSA age, you too. I don't think it was the school esteem thing.

[Jeff Doerr]

Garland and Pete,

...and to think I liked the south course better before they cleared some of the wooded areas and barked them in...

What's unfair to me out there is the painful look of the out of place Blue Spruce trees. That was truly a tree planting mistake.

[Pete_Pittock]

Jeff,
A lot of the fairway bunkering can be explained as being protective of a ball bouncing into the underbrush and being lost/unplayable.
The golf club owner also owns a nursery.

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,

this discussion about fairness is something that pops up on this site on a regular basis. I always give the answer there is no rule saying something has to be fair. I think your point about the irrigation pond is valid. A golf course should be playable for the players it caters for.

A last note is it seems to be overwhelmingly people from the US who rant on about unfairness on golf courses, two loops of nine being a must, all shots being visible, courses being standardised (par 72) etc. This lack of tolerance for the non conforming has led to a whole series of boring golf courses being built that won't offend.

One of the best things about this site is the fact that  there is still a general air of accepting another opinion even if you might not agree with it. Such tolerance is essential for creativity and diversity.

ps I am not saying all americans are intollerant, only those who don't agree with me

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting thread.

So the concept of fair isn't something that should be applied to a golf hole or a course for that matter.  Is it then a matter of a feature being over the top or gimicky?  And if so what are the boundaries as to what is gimicky or not?  Is the consensus view really the determining factor here??

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

Presumably everybody plays the same hole. Why then isn't a hole fair whether a feature is "over the top" or not?

Is the Dell hole unfair? You only have a rock to guide you. If they removed rock would it be unfair?

It would seem that my opponent would take exception to Swilican Burn if he got in it once to often. Is Swilican Burn unfair?

[John Mayhugh]

I can think of plenty of golf course features that I don't like and may not treat me very well, but that doesn't make them unfair.  

In the context of gca, I think a long forced carry is the only feature that could make a hole unfair.  If the player has NO OTHER option (e.g. play from forward tees, play around the hazard) but to carry a hazard, then length of carry is an issue.  Even then it's debatable how long is too long, though.  I think a forced carry over 120 yards is pushing it if you want golfers of varying ability levels to be able to play the course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Garland, which course are you talking about? (where you were playing your match)

[Garland Bayley]

Tommy,

I was talking about my home course, Orchard Hills, in Washougal, WA.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Presumably everybody plays the same hole. Why then isn't a hole fair whether a feature is "over the top" or not?

Is the Dell hole unfair? You only have a rock to guide you. If they removed rock would it be unfair?

It would seem that my opponent would take exception to Swilican Burn if he got in it once to often. Is Swilican Burn unfair?

Garland,

I was really just asking a question here.  I know the concept of fairness on the golf course in this forum gets beat down quite often.

On holes that are controversial, how are they to be described and then evaluated?  Quicky, gimicky, over-the-top, a work of genius, out-of-the-box.

I guess I"m really just trying to wrap my mind around what attributes go into these types of holes in attempting to determine if they work or not...hence the consensus view comment.  The closet thing I can think of is Mike Keisers m/o when building the holes at Bandon.  He would gather his trusted core guys around and ask "Is this great golf?"

[Garland Bayley]

In this case they are simply called difficult. On the two holes he took most exception to, the creek was in the landing zone of his tee shot. On our 13th, 550 uphill, I am forced to take 5 wood off the tee to stay out of the creek while he can hit full driver. He didn't mention unfair there.

I was surprised by his attitude since I had never heard anyone call them unfair before.

I should note that he named several courses where he played regularly or had been a member where the creek had been covered over. To me that is disfiguring of the landscape.