Changes coming to GolfClubAtlas.com

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ran:
I also recommend that you drop the post count that appears under each member’s name. Credibility should be earned with quality, not quantity, of posts. Members should not be motivated to post in order to reach a higher status level. The “stigma” of being a rookie should be removed. I don’t care if it’s you first post or number 10,000. The content is what matters.


Jim

Excellent thinking Jim, I can see no benefit to listing the quantity of input.  

[jim_lewis]

Tommy:

Sorry for overreacting to your post.

Jim

[Dan Herrmann]

Trust me, GCA.com is more civil than 99% of discussion boards anywhere on the web.  The ability to discuss and learn as adults with mutual respect is truly a wonderful thing.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan,
 I would agree, but the air has changed quite a bit in not what I would call a very positive direction in this discussion group.

[TEPaul]

Some of you ought to reread Ran Morrissett's initial post on this thread. I don't think he meant it to be another boring thread about whether we should use first names instead of initials or that this thread should be about better etiquette and greater decency on here.

He obviously wants to solicit some suggestions to upgrade the format or the platform or whatever it's called, the search ability and perhaps the structure and content of the site to make it a better, more useful and informative architectural website.

By the way to do this isn't exactly cheap. Why don't we discuss how to raise that money through additional contributions in some form or perhaps a sponsor?

Forget about initials or full first and last names. That's total chicken feed---really small potatoes, and it doesn't matter anyway. Everyone who contributes on here regularly knows who everyone else who contributes regularly is anyway.

[jim_lewis]

Tom said:
"Forget about initials or full first and last names. That's total chicken feed---really small potatoes, and it doesn't matter anyway. Everyone who contributes on here regularly knows who everyone else who contributes regularly is anyway."


Tom:
I think that you and I have very different views on how to improve GCA. You seem to be satisfied with thinks as they are since you continue to post very often. I am among those who were once fairly active, but rarely post anymore. I can assure you that my reasons for posting less have nothing to do with the format or the platform. It is all about the quality of the posts, which interest me less and annoy me more these days. Then again, maybe I'm just more easily annoyed the older I get!

My issue is not so much names, but the unfortunate results of allowing posters to use ficticious and disguised names. I think the license to make posts that are essentially anonymous has conributed to the decline in the quality of posts.

As you said, the regular posters know the regular posters. But then, there are 1500 members, and I doubt if most of them know very many of the others. Heck, there are probably some who don't even know who you are! It has been observed often that some threads turn into a "private conversation" among the "regulars". If we want to encourage more members to be more active, we need to be more welcoming. If you arrive at a large party and a few "insiders" are in the corner carrying on a private conversation, it can be pretty tough to join in. It may be even tougher, if they only refer to each other with nicknames.

BTW, I've even had GCA members conact me requesting access to my club, who did not even have the courtesy of providing their first and last names. Good luck.

Frankly, I am happy with the current GCA format. My guess is that you may not like my suggestion to remove the number of posts.  


Jim Lewis

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim,
You can count me as another that thinks the quality has gone down hill, especially in the last few months, and I'm not just mentioning the last few months, but but several months.

Tom isn't going to like me saying this, but the name calling and bad blood by regulars on both sides of the argument contributed to this. (and that's what it was, an argument escalated well beyond the bounds of good taste this forum has been known for) But there is a point for us to learn and grow further.

Do you remember the day where I was once so critical of Peachtree, and I hadn't even been there. You quickly pointed this out and it was then I had a learning experience to keep my mouth shut on golf courses, architecture and architects I didn't know a lot about. The point is I learned that lesson, as should others to keep an open mind about change, but most civility.

As far as anons, that has always been at the discretion of Ran and Ben and sometimes myself. The rule of thumb has been that if someone is in the golf business, they got to use a anon. This practice started with our old friend, 'By', remember him? When his identity was finally figured out and revealed, he was gone. (He was in fact a golf architect, and this is where we felt that it was needed to give respect to those who felt they needed anonymity to protect their livelihoods, yet want to add something to our group.)

As far as the access issues with those who come to you for access to your club, if it becomes a problem our annoyance don't ever hesitate to mention it to Ran or Ben, or myself. We will handle it appropriately from there, like last year when some decided that they could misrepresent themselves as potential new members at Ballyneal, or Dismal River; gain access just so they could play one round there.

That's a practice that is heavily frowned upon here, and I know we don't take it lightly. That message should go out to everyone else who does something similar or the same.

[jim_lewis]

Tommy:

I'll confess that I once asked a GCA member that I had never met to help me gain access at his club. I like to think that I handled the request well and the request was granted. I won't do it again.
I have been happy to host several GCA members at my club. In most cses, I enjoyed the experience. Not all.
I will still consider a request, but only if the individual is willing to tell me something about himself, including his name, where he is from, and where he plays.

Jim

[Greg Cameron]

Bob,long time no talk so I'lll say I was in Arizona helping my friend Terry Woodland on his Salome project for three weeks and now back home in busy season fixing numerous Irritation problems at various clubs(my buisness).Looking forward to Chambers Bay outing,.Must return south re grow in but still stuck re 10-15 hr construction  days for summer sched.Play 9- 18 soon? South Surrey somewhere?Whats your sched?.6o4-603 7744...Greg

[Doug Siebert]

Ran:

Personally, I do not like the idea of people being able to search for posts by the poster's name.  More than one writer has prepared for an article about me by searching for controversial quotes in this way.

I don't mind my posts remaining searchable by topic; that would allow people to find some post they remembered with a little effort.

Tom

That is currently the only thing the current search engine is actually good at doing.  If you go into a persons profile you can view that persons last 10 post, 50 posts or all of them.

Perhaps this could be configurable, so that a person could set something in their profile that would not allow their recent posts to show up and not allow their name to be used when searching for posts.

That way someone with a higher profile like Tom (and other higher profile people GCA would like to attract but may stay away for just this reason) could avoid this misuse of their postings.

If people are worried that too many may attempt to hide from their words in this manner, maybe it would be something only Ran could do upon request from the poster.


Additionally, concerns about Google indexing the site making people uncomfortable with using their real name here is just silly.  It is dead simple to disable Google and other search sites from indexing this site, so why not just do so?  Especially if GCA acquires a better search capability.  As it is, Google doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of indexing the site, I attempted to use it to search for my posts (I searched on 'site:golfclubatlas.com "Doug Siebert"', and have never used any other name here) and got only 143 results, while I've had more than 10x that many posts.  So what would be the harm in disabling it completely?

[JR Potts]

I have been happy to host several GCA members at my club. In most cses, I enjoyed the experience. Not all.
I will still consider a request, but only if the individual is willing to tell me something about himself, including his name, where he is from, and where he plays.

Ahh, access.......a side-effect of this board that I thought I didn't care about...until lately.

If somebody is going to write me for access, at least send a reply message when I decline due to a conflict.   Or a thank you for trying...or a thank you for considering it, etc.  This has happened on more than one occasion lately...and it sickens me.  In fact, I've totally stopped responding to all "access" IMs as a result.

 

[TEPaul]

Jim:

I understand your concerns about people's names and the quality of posts but I don't think Ran Morrissett intended this thread to be another one about that. Read his initial post again. It looks to me like he's talking about a major overhaul of the entire GOLFCLUBATLAS.com platform to make it more efficient to search and such. By the way, that ain't going to be cheap and the site needs to consider how that can be paid for among a lot of other things.

A lot of people have left the site or post less for all kinds of reasons. That's probably just the way it is in the world of the Internet.

In my opinion, that "intty" little mentality of that limited band who were from some original small group of participants on whatever website preceeded GOLFCLUBATLAS.com has got to go now. That was way back then---this is now.

Obviously Ran Morrissett thinks this site is about ten cycles behind times on upgrading its platform and it needs to get up with the times.

He's asking for suggestions on how to do that.

Personally, I'd like to see this site ditch its limited registration and open this place up to the entire world to register on it----the way it originally was. Sure that may create some problems but it would be a whole lot more inclusive and dynamic than GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com is now. You may not have noticed but this site has always had 4-5 times more people on it at any time who can't say anything than those who can. What if those people are valuable? What if they want to ask architectural questions or make statements of opinion on architecture? Don't you think this site needs to address that problem?

[TEPaul]

I would also like to see GOLFCLUBATLAS.com link onto whatever other viable Internet websites produce valuable architectural information and I'd like to see all those websites link GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com onto their sites.

What all of this is about to me is providing the easiest "one stop" shopping information access structure imaginable.

Think of some green chairman out there in the world somewhere who's looking for some specific architectural information on something. I think the idea ultimately is that he can go on the Internet and find it and access it as easily as this modern technology will now allow.

And, in my opinion, this very much all includes this proposed new USGA architecture archive that is now in the latter stages of planning. One of its best vehicles will surely be the INTERNET.

I say link it all together for everyone. And GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is an important place to start to do that.

[TEPaul]

Ryan:

As far as access to play courses through this website, I say this website should ask and encourage its participants to handle that on their own in the future. I know I am now. Pat Mucci is too and so are others who've been deluged in recent times through the Internet.

The time has come to stop expecting GOLFCLUBATLAS.com or somebody on it to stop this kind of thing for you. If I get a letter from someone asking me to do something I may not want to do, what do you think I should do---go down to the Post Office and ask my local Postmaster to handle it for me?

We all have the ability to just say no, and if we need to go on into the foreseeable future trying to get GOLFCLUBATLAS.com to do it for us we all have some real personal problems.

[paul cowley]

I tend to agree with Tom....I miss the open posting days.

 I know next to nothing about computer programs but I think that my suggestion earlier in this thread deserves consideration if it was possible to achieve via some Internet system .

Is it possible that Guests could pay for their posts....maybe a dollar each....and then after say 72$ worth of posts they have the opportunity to join the field at large....unmasked of course!....or go back to being a lurker.

Conceptually this expands the field and provides additional revenue.

I know I pay for stuff over the Internet....why not posts?
 

[Mark Bourgeois]

What structural changes can be made to the site to promote the frank commentary on the world's great courses?

Is there anything to be added to course profiles, DG, in my opinion, etc.?

Tom Paul, your suggestions are very interesting, but likely would require an actual employee. Can it be done without such?

Here's one way it could be:

Information structure could promote frank commentary. For example, tagging that posters could use to "self-segment" posts and threads. Then a type of search bot could be employed to "screen scrape" all this information - from all parts of the site, not just the DG - and put it on one screen.

This would enable some of Tom Paul's ideas. Along those lines, to promote frank commentary, wouldn't it be great if we could call up "super sub-sites" that included for example everything on an architect on this site? Who for example wouldn't love a Harry Colt super site? Or a "Golden Age" super site?

Or: a course-specific super site? It would benefit those of us who use this site as travel prep, and those who use it as armchair travel.

Re the latter, no one should be barred from making comments or asking questions on courses they've never visited: sometimes the best questions come from those who don't know they're asking the "wrong" question.

If the problem is ignorance, why should the solution be to ban the ignorant rather than help educate? Isn't this a nobler goal? (and with super sites, wouldn't GCA.com outings turbocharge the learning? Everyone could post an "in my opinion" that didn't carry the stultifying burden of carrying a thread in the "big" DG.

And what might come from such super sites are individuals whose interest in the topic might lead to an informal - possibly collective - effort to tag posts and threads and link to other sites. Out of love, someone might see an article or read a book and write a review and / or post a link.

TEP might "run" the superintendent "super site" without anyone ever asking him, and others might make additons and changes without TEP's input. Collective, nonhierarchical effort: it's an internet thing.

And, sure, maybe someone would go Col. Kurtz over a super site, and try to beat down the less informed, but the response might well help promote frank commentary, too!

From the GCA.com home page:
GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote the frank commentary on the world's finest golf courses (emphasis added). Within this site, the subject of golf course architecture is discussed in several different sections, including:? course profiles that highlight the finer virtues of golf architecture found in over 150 courses world-wide. ? monthly Feature Interviews with a well known golf figure with past interviews archived for your perusal as well. ? a Discussion Group limited to 1,500 people from around the world. Five new participants are brought on each month in lieu of five that are no longer active. If interested in participating, please email me.? an 'In My Opinion' column for you to submit detailed articles relating to the subject of golf architecture.? a 'My Home Course' section, where you may profile your home course and explain why it is enjoyable to play on a day to day basis.? an 'Art & Architecture' section in which many of the great courses are explored based on how they appeared at their inception through the paintings of California based artist Mike Miller. There is an ongoing Question and Answer session with Miller with new paintings added on a quarterly basis

[Rich Goodale]

I think that someone who writes three posts in a row is not a "God" nor even the Messiah, but just a naughty boy.......

[TEPaul]

MarkB:

As I said earlier on this thread I'm pretty much a computer or computer technology dunce (as Ran says he is too) but your suggestions in theory are most interesting.

I think those kinds of posts and suggestions are what Ran Morrissett is looking to solicit on this thread.

In this vein I use an example I told Ran about:

It involved Edwin Land's young son back in the 1950s or so. Land was taking a photo of his son and his son said: "Daddy, I want to see the photo RIGHT NOW!"

And so Edwin Land started thinking if and how that could be possible and the Polaroid Instamatic Camera was invented and born.  

[Mike_Young]

Jim:

I understand your concerns about people's names and the quality of posts but I don't think Ran Morrissett intended this thread to be another one about that. Read his initial post again. It looks to me like he's talking about a major overhaul of the entire GOLFCLUBATLAS.com platform to make it more efficient to search and such. By the way, that ain't going to be cheap and the site needs to consider how that can be paid for among a lot of other things.

A lot of people have left the site or post less for all kinds of reasons. That's probably just the way it is in the world of the Internet.

In my opinion, that "intty" little mentality of that limited band who were from some original small group of participants on whatever website preceeded GOLFCLUBATLAS.com has got to go now. That was way back then---this is now.

Obviously Ran Morrissett thinks this site is about ten cycles behind times on upgrading its platform and it needs to get up with the times.

He's asking for suggestions on how to do that.

Personally, I'd like to see this site ditch its limited registration and open this place up to the entire world to register on it----the way it originally was. Sure that may create some problems but it would be a whole lot more inclusive and dynamic than GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com is now. You may not have noticed but this site has always had 4-5 times more people on it at any time who can't say anything than those who can. What if those people are valuable? What if they want to ask architectural questions or make statements of opinion on architecture? Don't you think this site needs to address that problem?

Tom,
I appreciate what Ran does with this site and look forward to the changes BUT.....you mention green chairmen using this site......well one needs to remember that one of the downsides to a discussion group such as this is the ability to convey a sense of credibility on a subject when credibility is not due....all of the other sites such as Golf Management magazine(GCSAA) etc have edited articles...not here.....there is the possibility of one or two posters promoting one architect and constantly slamming another....man would this really help a green chairman.....and on top of that some of the most sucessful archs in the country have no chance on this site.....one would have to be careful how this proceeded.....too much opinion disguised as fact or knowledge on this site for the "discussion group" segment to be viewed as a resource.....  IMHO.....
Mike

[paul cowley]

Well it looks like the 'paying for your posts' idea isn't getting much traction.......well that's OK by me cause I think I'll just start my own blog called; 'putyourmoneywhereyourmouthis.com'.......so see you there, if you dare.....not gonna have paul cowley to kick around here anymore....no sirree.

Hey, how about it Niwde....wanna come along?

[TEPaul]

Don't get your fur so ruffled Paul, I still love you, and if you want some people of your selection to pay for some posts on here then allow me to buy the first few rounds.

[Bill_McBride]

I appreciate what Ran does with this site and look forward to the changes BUT.....you mention green chairmen using this site......well one needs to remember that one of the downsides to a discussion group such as this is the ability to convey a sense of credibility on a subject when credibility is not due....all of the other sites such as Golf Management magazine(GCSAA) etc have edited articles...not here.....there is the possibility of one or two posters promoting one architect and constantly slamming another....man would this really help a green chairman.....and on top of that some of the most sucessful archs in the country have no chance on this site.....one would have to be careful how this proceeded.....too much opinion disguised as fact or knowledge on this site for the "discussion group" segment to be viewed as a resource.....  IMHO.....
Mike

Mike, I hear you loud and clear about such matters as recommending golf architects.

But as a resource for a green chairman to get a look at what the great courses look like, there is no resource that I'm aware of on line better than GCA.com for researching the great courses and reading articles of interest such as those in the feature interviews and "My Opinion" and "My Home Course" sections.  

I have a couple of times taken our young super into his office, fired up the computer, logged onto GCA.com and pulled up photos of the bunkering at great courses like Hoylake and suggested he started cutting that damned rough in front of the fairway bunkers a lot closer!

Not that it's worked yet....

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I appreciate what Ran does with this site and look forward to the changes BUT.....you mention green chairmen using this site......well one needs to remember that one of the downsides to a discussion group such as this is the ability to convey a sense of credibility on a subject when credibility is not due....all of the other sites such as Golf Management magazine(GCSAA) etc have edited articles...not here.....there is the possibility of one or two posters promoting one architect and constantly slamming another....man would this really help a green chairman.....and on top of that some of the most sucessful archs in the country have no chance on this site.....one would have to be careful how this proceeded.....too much opinion disguised as fact or knowledge on this site for the "discussion group" segment to be viewed as a resource.....  IMHO....."


MikeY:

Something tells my you're not a huge believer in the concept of "Caveat Emptor".    

And since green chairmen may be one of golf's most significant architectural "Emptors" these days maybe more of them should be encouraged to come on this website and get their asses blasted.

You think this website can be a potentially dangerous place for some architects? How about a dangerous place for most green chairmen?  
 

[Mike_Young]

Paul C,
What is Niwde?

Bill,
Yep there are some good reference materials in those sections...the discussion group is what would concern me as a resource......it would be no different than someone going to one of the "dead guy" associations.

Tom P,
Problem is most green chairman tink about their role 1 hour per month when they are having their breafast or lunch meeting.....most don't have the enthusiasm this site does....AND no matter how you phrase it....the discussion group DISCRIMINATES as to architects and styles....
that ought to get it going....it is not a site that discusses all styles of golf architecture fairly  IMHO
Mike

[paul cowley]

Mike...."Paul C, What is Niwde?"....TomP would be the best person to answer that .

....and I agree with you about the bias of the DG...its definitely not a no-spin zone, but I do think the rest of the site is an outstanding resource....I'm just glad future clients never lurk here or I'd worry more about what I say.