An arcane historical question

[Tom_Doak]

Tom and Jaeger:


The old articles talk about a 3,600 or 3,750 yard course, and one of them mentions 3 par 5's and 2 par 3's.  I'm guessing 3, 7 and 9 were par 5's.


From the sounds of it, there were three par 3's in the '90's.  Wonder if one of the old holes was shortened, or if it played as a short par 4 originally.


Sven

Sven:  the 2nd, 6th and 8th were all par-3's as I've described it.  The 3rd, 7th and 9th were par-5's.


The 4th was a very long par-4, but the 1st and 5th were not, so the routing had to be somewhat different if the course was ever as long as you say.


My best guess:  the 8th might've been an add-on, and the original course had a triangle where #3 played along the road, another par-4 played to the green we've been talking of as the 3rd, and the 4th was a short par-5.   

[Ronald Montesano]

More importantly, who was "Emmy" who posted on this thread, back in 2007? We let another female GCA buff get away?

[Bret Lawrence]

I found a description of the 135 yard Par 3, 6th hole from a 1928 article.  I am not sure which of the two Guggenheim courses this article is referring to. 



The story starts in the second column:





Willie Mackie was the professional at one of the estates for 20 years.  His obituary says he was at Daniels.  However,  in an article 10 years later, Dave Ramsey who worked at Daniels' estate said that Willie Mackie was always the pro for Isaac and Saul(Soloman).

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Here is an article from 1913, that mentions Issac Guggenheim having a private golf course on his estate. 

Isaac Guggenheim moved to his Port Washingon estate in 1907.  The Gate House, and many of the outbuildings were built prior to Villa Carola.  It appears from this article, that the golf course was also built prior to Villa Carolla.


Library of Congress site:
The Cairo Bulletin-Tuesday February 25, 1913:



Bret

[Sven Nilsen]

Bret:


Interesting find.  I wonder if its a reference to the course at Villa Carola, or possibly a reference to the existing Gould course.


Sven

[Jim_Kennedy]

It was Isaac that had the course built.

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Daniel bought Gould's estate in 1917, so Gould still owned his course in 1913.  If Isaac moved to Port Washington in 1907, it is possible he was rejected from Sands Point long before 1917, therefore needing his own golf course.


There is also a possibility that the golf course was redesigned when Soloman took over the estate in 1924.  I have no proof that he did, but Soloman did have many of the rooms in the house redesigned.


Bret

[Jim_Kennedy]

Plug "golf" into the search box
https://books.google.com/books?id=Y0_8a63XTD4C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=villa+carola+long+island&source=bl&ots=EKKE7IGepG&sig=vqaOIf07DN4-SMMNkvcEHeNNeKE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF1LXe04TKAhXKFx4KHUf5DpE4ChDoAQgbMAA#v=onepage&q=golf&f=false






http://halfpuddinghalfsauce.blogspot.com/2012/12/villa-carola-residence-of-mr-and-mrs.html

[Sven Nilsen]

Bret:


Looks like wikipedia has this one wrong.


The 1923 article above notes two courses on the Villa Carola estate.  Its possible there was an early course as noted in your article and then a second course built around the same time the villa was constructed.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Plug "golf" into the search box
https://books.google.com/books?id=Y0_8a63XTD4C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=villa+carola+long+island&source=bl&ots=EKKE7IGepG&sig=vqaOIf07DN4-SMMNkvcEHeNNeKE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF1LXe04TKAhXKFx4KHUf5DpE4ChDoAQgbMAA#v=onepage&q=golf&f=false




http://halfpuddinghalfsauce.blogspot.com/2012/12/villa-carola-residence-of-mr-and-mrs.html

Jim:


That's the same book I referenced in my first post.  Unfortunately, I seem to have exceeded google's allowed viewings.  Any change you could summarize anything that adds to the conversation.


Sven

[Jim_Kennedy]

Nothing, other than i thought that there was some confusion about Isaac's building of the course.


Enjoying this so far.
 

[Jaeger Kovich]

Just something to keep in mind, especially around the dates 1918-22. Sands Point Golf Club, which is different from The Village Club of Sands Point, started as a 9 hole golf course, before it was redesigned by Tillinghast.


Bellow is the first paragraph from the Sands Point Golf Club history page. If you scroll down further you will see that Harry Guggenheim was listed as an early member when the club hired Tillinghast to expand the course.


http://www.sandspointgc.org/history.php



History of the Sands Point Golf Club
By Arnold E. Monetti[/color][/size][/font][/size][/color]PRENATAL PERIODA farm there was in Cow’s Neck, as the area was known at the turn of the century, owned by the brothers Cornwell, William and Walter, and farmed by their tenant, Peter J. Mahoney. It was destined to be a great golf course. In a house located where the cottage behind the 18th green now stands, lived William and, in another, on the site of the present 13th green, Walter. Some of the apple   trees which shaded the homes are still there. Peter’s house was that long occupied by Howard Dietz. The produce barns were located where the present stables are and the carriage barn on the site of the present Club House. Farmer Mahoney grew truck garden vegetables which he washed in the carriage barn before taking   them to market in New York City, a day’s journey by horse and wagon in   those primordial days.In 1918 the Cornwells sold the property to a New York lawyer named George E. Reynolds, of the Reynolds Tobacco Company family, who built the first 9 holes of the present golf course (now the back nine). Reynolds operated the Harbor Hills Country Club which had a brief existence before the property was acquired   by Julius Fleischman in 1921.[/font][/color]

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is the resource I used for some of this information I have.  Villa Carola starts on Page 180.  If you go back a few pages there is also a nice aerial shot of W.K. Vanderbilts golf course.


http://issuu.com/acanthus_press/docs/north_shore_long_island/59

[Jaeger Kovich]

Bret - Good stuff. Do you think that hole from William K Vanderbilt's home is part of the original Deepdale GC before the LIE was built through it?

[Bret Lawrence]

Jaeger,


Thanks.  I have already made that mistake on another thread.  The three hole practice course you see pictured at W.K. Vanderbilt Jr.'s Estate was designed by Devereux Emmet.(According to the W. K. Vanderbilt Jr. Museum) This was his Eagle's Nest Estate. 


W.K. Vanderbilt Jr.'s Deepdale Estate was on Lake Success.  It's hard to keep track of all of these estates considering the similar names amongst siblings and multiple estates held by the families.


Bret

[Phil Young]

Jaeger,

Monetti's "History of the Sands Point Golf Club" was a good effort but incomplete. Some of the Club's history can be found in an article in the latest Met Golfer magazine. http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/599592-nov-dec-2015

Sands Point Golf Club was founded in 1898 and had a 9-hole course in the "Roslyn Hills." It was 2,109 yards in length. It would be sold at a foreclosure sale to Harry Tibbits in 1914. They eventually would lease property on the estate of S.I. Van Wart. After his passing this property would be sold at auction on the same day as the estate of Julius Fleischman that had the 9-hole Harbor Hills Country Club course. Both of these properties would be purchased by the founders of Sands Point Golf Club.

After Tilly first looked at the property he wrote a letter dated 4/3/1927 which is also contained in the Monetti article. According to Monetti, Tilly was asked to "revamp the first 9 holes [Harbor Hills] and complete the second 9 [Sands Point]..." In Tilly's letter he tells the club that the present golf course measured 5,375 yards and that many of the holes were generally mediocre. He stated "Is the property worthy of a modern course? Most assuredly. Is the present plan good? No, it is very bad."

Tilly would use a number of the Harbor Hills holes and a handful only of the Sands Point holes throughout the new design, each of which were changed to fit into the entire new course he created.

As the Guggenheims and their private estate courses have been mentioned throughout this thread, it is of interest that Harry Guggenheim was on the original board of Sands Point.

[Neil Regan]

...
 http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/ryr/id/503/rec/3

...

Jim,
  I was browsing through those photos, and what did I see ? A picture from c 1932 of the house where I grew up. My brother still lives there.
  That photo is buried deep in the archives at SMU. I doubt it will ever be unboxed, and no way I would have ever found it by looking for it.
  GCA has mysterious powers. 😀


Neil

[Jim_Kennedy]

Neil,


Gotta love the www. 


HNY,
Jim

[Joe Hancock]

...
 http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/ryr/id/503/rec/3

...

I was browsing through those photos, and what did I see ? A picture from c 1932 of the house where I grew up.

Anyone that knows you will undoubtedly see the humor in this claim. You've never grown up.....

Happy New Year!