The real TOP 100

[Patrick_Mucci]

What features or holes should be in the top 100 priority list to restore ?

I'll start with the 12th hole at GCGC.
The original hole was a masterpiece of quirk.
Strategic, sporty, challenging, unique, and, it had to be fun to play.

[Mark_F]

The original hole was a masterpiece of quirk.

You must have a very intelligent membership there Patrick, if you want to restore a quirky hole.  

Putting the tees back INSIDE The Old Course would be a good start.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick, Nice thread! How bout:

1. Punchbowl at Yale
2. Soup bowl at rye
3. Sitwell park green

Mark

[Will E]

1-18 LIDO
somewhere this could be built

[Kyle Harris]

This may be partly my own bias, but a lot of Willie Park's work in the United States.

Including Greate Bay, Philmont North, some of the features at Woodway CC in Connecticut and holes 6-14 on Penn State's White Course.

With the probable exception of Glen Ridge in NJ, I've yet to see a Willie Park course restored to the potential of the original design intent. I especially think that a positive attribution of Philmont North to Park and a complete restoration of the remaining Park holes at PSU would go far to show the true nature of Park's genius.

[Sean Leary]

What features or holes should be in the top 100 priority list to restore ?

I'll start with the 12th hole at GCGC.
The original hole was a masterpiece of quirk.
Strategic, sporty, challenging, unique, and, it had to be fun to play.

Pat Mucci,

Why was the 12th hole altered?.  I have heard about the current hole in many discussions but I have never heard why it was changed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

There are a variety of reasons, most of which were related to me by a former club employee.

In general terms.

Inability of the staff to properly maintain it.
Constant vandalism.
Popularity of RTJ

[Jon Spaulding]

I would propose Olympic's Ocean Course beach holes.....and second the Lido idea.

[John Kirk]

I think there are several problems with the front nine at Los Angeles CC - North that require attention.  The back nine is superb.  Holes 2, 6, 7 and 8 might be worthy of modification and/or tree removal.  Hole 17 is a little tight too.

[James Bennett]

Remove the eucalypts on the inside of Riviera's dogleg left #13.  It will bring back the barranca (the natural hazard) as defining the line of charm.  It would also remove the one teeshot where IMO the trees come into play (although I would also be delighted if the two tall eucalypts on #8 between the split fairways were removed as well - they affect the second shot from the left fairway).

No other simple changes are needed at Riviera.

James B

[wsmorrison]

Great question, Pat.  This one deserves a little thought before I type.  I'll try something different for you.

Kyle,

What needs restoring at Philmont North?  Are you going to remove any Flynn, if there is any to begin with?  There are no plans or photos that show the opening day design, so what do you do?

[Tyler Kearns]

Inability of the staff to properly maintain it.
Constant vandalism.
Popularity of RTJ

Patrick,

How did the redesign address vandalism?

Cut down the majority of trees between #1 & #9, #6 & #7 at Pasatiempo.

TK

[Tom Huckaby]

Cut down the majority of trees between #1 & #9, #6 & #7 at Pasatiempo.

TK

Tyler - they've already done that to a large extent between 1 and 9... back in the day one couldn't see from one fairway to the other... now there's a lot of light.  Oh, in a perfect world there would be zero trees at all there... but the world isn't perfect.

Which is also why it needs to stay as it is re 6 and 7.  If they cut those trees down, both holes would benefit, for sure... but... they'd have to close the course to the public as the danger of litigation would be far too great, as golfer after golfer on that very crowded course plays into the "wrong" fairway, crossing with the players playing the other hole.  If the course was private and play was limited, of course that wouldn't be a problem - kinda like my grand scheme to remove the trees between 11 and 12  thus making both of those holes alternate fairway holes - it only works in a fantasy world of very limited play.

Maybe in the end that's a net positive... it sure as heck would be for the priviliged few who got to play the course.

Make those changes and it necessarily closes except for very limited play.

Is that a net positive in the overall scheme of things?

[Eric Franzen]

It would be pretty interesting to restore some of the old sand dunes at Pebble Beach (7th, 17th etc). It would probably be a nightmare from a strict maintenance perspective... but hey, let's just imagine how f**kin cool these holes would look  

[Kalen Braley]

Its my understanding those holes at Pebble were altered due to lean times that the course was suffering though.

Now that the place is a massive cash cow, this seems very feasible and affordable.

[Kyle Harris]

Great question, Pat.  This one deserves a little thought before I type.  I'll try something different for you.

Kyle,

What needs restoring at Philmont North?  Are you going to remove any Flynn, if there is any to begin with?  There are no plans or photos that show the opening day design, so what do you do?

Wayne,

To me, a lot of those greens (if proven to be Park) have shrunk immensely, so that would be the start. The 3rd green is an example of this.

Any further word on documenting the architect for Philmont North?

[mike_malone]

 Torresdale/ Frankford in Philadelphia ( it's really in the city, too) is #1 on my list.  They really only need to restore the original width to gain huge benefits. Unfortunately, they appear to be accepting a master plan which will eliminate their historic chance to uncover their original design's greatness.

[Sean Leary]

For the Boston contingent, what about Ponkapaug?

[Bill_McBride]

Inability of the staff to properly maintain it.
Constant vandalism.
Popularity of RTJ

Cut down the majority of trees between #1 & #9, #6 & #7 at Pasatiempo.

Great idea, but you'd have to issue a hard hat to every player!  

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - well said, my friend - see my post above - alternative to hardhats would be limiting play to perhaps 10 groups a day, spaced at least 1/2 hour apart....

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Inability of the staff to properly maintain it.
Constant vandalism.
Popularity of RTJ

Patrick,

How did the redesign address vandalism?


It removed the lure.[/color]

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Not exactly a restoration,but, the original tee placement on #18 at Cypress Point..then there would not be any more unjustified moaning about the  hole being a weak finishing hole

[Jeff Doerr]

Not exactly a restoration,but, the original tee placement on #18 at Cypress Point..then there would not be any more unjustified moaning about the  hole being a weak finishing hole

Does anyone have documentation of the original designs on 18 tee?

[Tyler Kearns]

Inability of the staff to properly maintain it.
Constant vandalism.
Popularity of RTJ

Patrick,

How did the redesign address vandalism?


It removed the lure.[/color]

Patrick,

Call me a dunce, but I do not understand. We had some vandalism problems at my home course last year, we hired a security guard.

Tom & Bill,

I was not advocating the removal of all the trees, just a healthy majority. The tree removal will never happen for the reasons you mentioned. It's a shame, the freedom to swing away at Pasatiempo is compromised many times throughout the round, and the housing is the culprit just as much as the trees. I guess bulldozing houses is even less likely to happen.

TK

[Michael Christensen]

kyle,

come up to new haven cc...we are adding green extensions to almost every hole (back to original design)....we are also working on the trees...a lot have come down and hopefully a lot more will follow!