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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« on: April 24, 2007, 11:00:00 PM »
This discussion group serves a purpose as a place for the discussion of golf architecture and related subjects and it is an enjoyable pursuit.  But it seems more and more it is becoming a sounding board for a lot of smoke and mirrors.  It is being  used as a tool to gain credibility as a golf architect when in reality some of those people have no clue nor have they ever put anything in the ground.  Some these guys have websites that at first glance would make a client think these guys had been in this business for a long time yet with a little investigation there is nothing there.....the lines are nothing but BS.  And you find upon investigation that half of the "work" they claim just aint so.....
Am I the only one that sees this???  Should the site have an obligation to expose this just as JK exposed the "reciprocal site".....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 11:04:42 PM »
I'm not sure what you are specifically discussing, but the primary reason I like this site is to get information about golf courses free from most of the marketing b.s. or simple ill informed opinion that appears in other sources of information.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2007, 11:09:06 PM »
I'm not sure what you are specifically discussing, but the primary reason I like this site is to get information about golf courses free from most of the marketing b.s. or simple ill informed opinion that appears in other sources of information.
Jason,
don't think there is not some ill informed opinion on this site...including some of mine probably....but there is also some that is just pure BS...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2007, 11:11:30 PM »
You can either expose BS or dispose of BS, just don't expose the BS of a SBer or you will find yourself B deep in S.  

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2007, 11:11:45 PM »
 8)
Mike,

I've been a Chemical & Environmental Engineer for 32 years.. I do drainage stuff, and water balances have been a main interest.. in refineries, chemical plants and.. why not golf courses in the future for retirement to barter for golf access?  I certainly don't qualify as gca, just technically interested, and capable.. no web site.

I can't see disclaimers such as above necessary...?

I can see slick marketing on Internet being problematic in many professional areas..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2007, 11:28:38 PM »
I'm not sure what you are specifically discussing, but the primary reason I like this site is to get information about golf courses free from most of the marketing b.s. or simple ill informed opinion that appears in other sources of information.
Jason,
don't think there is not some ill informed opinion on this site...including some of mine probably....but there is also some that is just pure BS...

True, but it tends to be exposed or at least challenged

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2007, 11:33:08 PM »
I'm not sure what you are specifically discussing, but the primary reason I like this site is to get information about golf courses free from most of the marketing b.s. or simple ill informed opinion that appears in other sources of information.
Jason,

don't think there is not some ill informed opinion on this site...including some of mine probably....but there is also some that is just pure BS...

True, but it tends to be exposed or at least challenged
Let's hope so.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2007, 12:10:53 AM »
If you really want a shock,ask your attorney how many cases he has actually tried.You have got to look past the hype.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 01:44:27 AM »
Mike .....not sure what I need to say but I sense your pain.
....my momma would tell me to hang tougher, like that was some kind of answer.

Actually it was for her.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jim Nugent

Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2007, 02:06:42 AM »
I'd like to know what's real and what's b.s.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2007, 02:20:43 AM »
Well Jim, sometimes you might just have to wade in there to figure out whats fiber versus flatulence. ;)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 02:22:33 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2007, 06:14:21 AM »
Mike
I think the BS in the threads is self exposing. No need to worry about that. And, with few exceptions, I so no substantial correlation here between employment in the GCA industry and intellegent contribution to the discussion. I have no problem with that either.
However, if there are guys here who are claiming to be something that they are not, then that should be exposed.
I, by the way, am a old washed up rock singer / deft middle aged folk singer, depending on your POV, who is also attempting to start a parallel career in journalism, some golf related.

wsmorrison

Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2007, 06:50:22 AM »
Mike,

I meet a lot of committee members at various clubs.  With great intentions but often ill-informed, they proceed to map out and execute important initiatives for their clubs.  Often they aren't even sure what they want to do, they simply know they need to do something.  They don't have a guidebook, a checklist or other kinds of structures that allow them to figure out just what it is they determine is required nor resources such as an organized archives or where to go for aerial photograph collections and other information that is of great help to the determination process.  

Where is the advocacy for true restoration and preservation?  How does one do the right thing for a club when it may conflict with economic incentives?  There are some supremely talented architects, shapers, construction companies, researchers/historians.  I would hope to see a mechanism whereby these components can come together in efficient ways to continue to produce outstanding achievements and avoid big mistakes.  I do worry that some pieces of this intricate puzzle of art and science promote themselves with more smoke and mirrors along with glitzy marketing and fancy presentations than they do with underpinnings of talent and experience.

Professional standards and a baseline certification of golf course architects are not established.  Anybody can call themself a golf course architect.  What are they capable of doing?  Do they sell themselves in an accurate manner?  I've seen a list of "work" by architects, some of them just getting in the business and others that have been in the business for decades.  I know there are inaccuracies and exaggerations.  Someone can write up a master plan of some kind and say they are/were consultants at a club when their work hasn't been approved or implemented.  The impression being that they are the de facto architect for the club.  There just isn't any peer review or standard credentials.  The lack of peer review and certification in my mind hinders the profession somewhat.  It should be self-regulating and prevent untested and untrained individuals, who happen to be better businessmen than architects, from presenting themselves as something they are not.  It also should ensure that qualified architects present accurate qualifications.  

The BS needs to be controlled.  I think self regulating is the way to go.  While a lot of BS is slinging back and forth on this site (I admit guilt at times), it is often caught and discarded.  But not always.  The so-called experts on this site can be exposed since we have a review process, though not a formal one.  Many of us are quick to jump on the ill-conceived idea or poorly stated case.  Sometimes we are too quick and too harsh and that stifles dialog.  There are a few notable self-proclaimed experts on this site that profess to knowing it all and that others are incapable of knowing enough to counter their claims.  As they reach their 2500th course played and 81st in North Dakota, their expertise just seems to grow even more...in their own minds.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 07:06:22 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2007, 07:08:21 AM »
Mike Beene,
An attorney friend of mine says he considers it a mistake if he cant settle b4 going to court.

Paul,
Not really a "pain" for me....but sometimes you just wish to call this stuff on the floor.  I think some of it may very soon.  We got guys on this site asking a club if they can come by and see the place and the next thing you know they are claiming they are the club consultant....and some act as though they are C0-architect with someone else when they can't get out of the rain.....you know how it goes.....
I think I will write a book on Atlanta Braves baseball....see if they will let me sit in the dugout one night and maybe do a nice website describing how I manage the club......JUST Bitching.....

Lloyd,
You are not a washed up Rock singer.....but you would be a good comparison.....say you had written many songs but had never sold one or had success performing them.....I guess you would still be a songwriter....And if you had a good website with these songs listed....Hell, it might be you could make it sound like one of them had won a Grammy w/o ever being performed...
Good luck with your writing career....

Wayne,
Yep....good message....

Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2007, 08:07:17 AM »
Mike:

Short answer----yes.

GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is not a trade organization that muzzles criticism of anything and in that way this place does serve a purpose. In my opinion this website should be like a roiling barroom on Friday night in Dodge City, and this ain't the first time I've said that. Constipation of opinion is not needed on here---constant and frequent evacuation of opinion is needed, if you get my drift.  ;)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2007, 08:36:34 AM »
My own perspective:

I hope I have enough respect here so that if I ever misrepresent myself or anyone I associate with, that you folks will call me out on it.

Ethical behavior is important to me and I would want to know if I am out of line with anything I say or do.

I can handle being called crazy or silly, but to give someone a reason to call me a liar or thief would be intolerable.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2007, 09:37:25 AM »
"I can't call out a cheater at a poker table if I don't know enough about poker to know that he's cheating."

Peter:

Actually you don't need to know much about poker or cheating at poker to call out a cheater at any time. All you need to call out a cheater at any time and at any place is a large .45 caliber pistol. Furthermore, my experience is you will never need to use it---just making it evident pretty much does the trick.

Or to take the issue to a higher level of munition, I might offer my friend Mark Shuman's suggestion which is that every red-blooded citizen should be issued one personal missle to potentially use at his desceretion once in his life.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2007, 10:09:24 AM »
Using the trading pit as a microcosim, informing the community of those who do things that violate the trust is an imperative.

The facts will speak for themselves and grey areas usually do not occurr, especially when moneis are invovled.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2007, 10:33:10 AM »
BS has a long history with gca. You could make a pretty good case that it IS the history of gca.  ;)

More seriously, I don't think anyone, including me, you, the ASGCA, or anyone else is in a position to call out someone's BS.

Lying or misrepresentations, those are different matters.

But good old American BS? The market is almost always the best way to flush it out. It will do so anyway, sooner or later.

Bob

 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 11:23:43 AM by BCrosby »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2007, 10:37:26 AM »
I for one will never be caught putting BS into my grits. No way...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2007, 10:38:13 AM »
BS has a long history with gca. You could make a pretty good case that it IS the history of gca.  ;)

More seriously, I don't think anyone, including me, you, the ASGCA, or anyone else is in a position to call out someone's BS. Lying or misrepresentations, those are different matters.

But good old American BS? The market is almost always the best way to flush it out. It will do so anyway, sooner or later.

Bob

 
bob,
I guesss I should change my choice of words.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2007, 11:17:39 AM »
If you feel like someone is misrepresenting themselves, then send them an IM asking about it. Direct contact, direct question, requiring a direct answer.

If no answer is given, or if the answer is BS, then you know what you are dealing with, and can decide for yourself if want to "go public" with that knowledge, or impression. It would just seem to me to be common courtesy to make the direct contact first. The IM is a feature of the site, so you know that if they post here they will get your message.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2007, 11:22:56 AM »
As one who also does not work in the industry, I love this board for the discussion and being able to interact with people who have the same passion as I do.  I think I would love to work in the field, but also understand its really tough to carve out a living doing so.

I have been working in the tech industry for the last 8 years, and I see the same kinds of things happen.  People claim to be experts and claim to have invented such and such innovation. The one nice thing though, there is usually a spec or standard for just about everything, so its a lot easier to call peoples BS. But even then, two people can read a technical spec the same way, yet have two different opinions on how it is to be engineered and implemented.

IMO, this type of thing happens in every profession and its up to the people in the know to at least attempt to set things straight.  So if you have questions about layer 2 ethernet packets, I'm your guy.   ;D

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2007, 11:26:01 AM »
Identify the high road.  Then take it.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we obligated to expose the BS ???
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2007, 11:31:35 AM »


Are you referring to Nicklaus' web site?

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

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