Royal Mid-Surrey Question

[BCrosby]

Are J.H. Taylor's mounds still evident at Royal Mid-Surrey?

I was reading about the course over the weekend. Taylor made changes there about 1912, replacing a number of Victorian cops and geometric bunkers with some wild looking mounding. Both in the fw's and around greens.

I found all that of interest as a sort of failed design experiment. Taylor wanted to overcome the deficiencies of the older inland Victorian courses in the UK. My sense is that Taylor's experiment didn't attract much of a following.

At about the same time Colt, Low, Simpson and others were dealing with the same problems but they went in a very different direction. Which turned out to be the direction that dominated gca during the Golden Age.

Are/were there other courses that adopted Taylor's wild and woolly mounds as a corrective to Victorian designs?

Bob    

[Philip Gawith]

Bob - it is a while since I played RMS but my recollection is that they are still there. Willie Park jr certainly built some mounding at Huntercombe in 1901 - probably most clearly evident on the 7th hole. If I have time I will try to post a picture or two.....

[Ulrich Mayring]

I would be very interested to see these pictures!

Ulrich

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Assuming that JHT's "Mid Surrey mounding" architectural experiment and so-called "alpinization" was one and the same thing, there was some evidence of it on a few courses around here such as Merion East and PVGC. It did not last long, though, and was removed early on.

There was something of a debate on here in the last year or so about whether JHT invented the style and the architectural concept or whether perhaps Tillinghast did (it has been on Somerset Hills since it was created) or even if it was created initially and simultaneously by each of them independent of one another (just as the jet engine was apparently initially created simultaneously in three countries by different people independent of one another and perhaps even unaware of one another).

I don't know what you were reading about it but if you haven't already you should read about it on here in Tommy Nacarrato's "In My Opinion" piece entitled "In Praise of the Ralph Miller Library". In that opinion piece there is a long inclusion about by Taylor about his rational for the style and concept. He viewed it as a cheaper and far more effective form of graduated penalty in architecture than the bunkering that he saw in use at that time.

[BCrosby]

Tom and all -

I've never been to Royal M-S nor even seen many pictures of it. So I don't have much to say about the course.

My interest in RM-S stems from Taylor's architectural theories. He held many views that were later characterized as "penal." (He anticipates, for example, some of the things Joshua Crane articulated by about ten years. Taylor certainly supported Crane's views about the obsolescence of TOC.)

My sense is that Taylor saw himself - as evidenced by RM-S and maybe other courses - as trying to overcome the deficiencies of inland Victorian designs. The interesting part is that he did not want to "fix" those older course by making them more strategic. He did not seem to want to follow the lead of Colt, Fowler, Low and others. He saw himself as going in a different direction.

Thus Taylor's "alpinization" experiment. Obviously his experiment was less than a raging success. But one of his motives for this was his belief that other designers of the time (read: Colt and his ilk) did not provide enough "controls" (Crane's terminology) on shot-making. Nonetheless, Taylor designed a lot of courses pre-WWII, including a redo of Royal Birkdale with Hawtree. (I've never seen RB either.)  

I am trying to find more about Taylor's views of these subjects and/or the courses he designed. Any leads would be appreciated.

Bob      

 

[RT]

Bob,

There still are some of JH Taylor and Peter Lees mounds/moguls on the Outer Course.  It seems to me the 2nd Outer is the most well-preserved and least tampered with hole in its entirety, then nos. 3/4/5/6.

If one is in SW London on their way out to play the Heathland courses outside the M25 it might be worth the time to stop in at the club and take a gander at this section of the course that abutts Royal Kew Gardens. Both Outer and Inner course covers 217 acres, so it can be easily viewed in total.

In fact a day at Royal Kew Gardens is worth it too.

RT

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I know what you mean about Taylor's experiment (MSM) plying some middle ground between say Colt and Crane both actually and philosophically in play (between penal and strategic). This kind of thing to me just shows how much back then it was a matter of those guys trying to figure out what to do and how to do it in the sense of what golf and archtitecture should be or was supposed to be. I would call that time the middle era of the formative years, particularly with INLAND golf and architecture.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bob,

If you go to the Mid-Surrey website they have a wonderful photographic tour of the course in 360 degree view. You will be able to loctae many of Taylor's mounds that still exist within these views.

Tillinghast introduced a "Mid-Surrey style" of "Alpinization" mounding at Shawnee in 1911, several years ahead of anyone else. He would do this at a number of his early courses and seemed to use them on the "Lilliput Links" short courses that he did on estates.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bob I do hope you will write something about the early theories of golf course design; you keep coming up with interesting teasers.

I haven't played RMS but I am familiar with Fulwell, that he designed in 1904 with two courses on a similar model.  It's only about 6 miles away and on similar flat but free draining ground.  At that time it was highly though of and even hosted the News of the World Matchplay. I have the club history and neither the text nor old photos show any of these man made 'humps'.  I've also played 3 more of his courses from the 20's and 30's and they don't feature them.  Of course he was the professional at RMS so he may have had the opportunity to experiment with his theories there.   When was he writing about this?  In 1922 he formed his partnership with Hawtree.


Website - cut & paste
http://www.rmsgc.co.uk/index.lasso?pg=23ac7a58ee3dcf9c&cl=1&catid=fb29019679c12a67&mp=08e1abc1e479f634&-session=ldcms:1FF307F090179F1665D34CB3CC183BCD



I will talk to Richard Pennell about us moving RMS higher up the list of courses to play on the GCA Heathlands Tour.  Proposed next stop this Thursday at 4ish either Knowle park or Walton Heath, please contact one of us if anyone can make it.

[Richard Pennell]

Tony - that sounds good. I've been meaning to play there for years. The club advertised for a new Course Manager recently and the ad mentioned that the club was embarking on a program of replacing all 36 greens with new USGA specifications, which could be interesting to see. (for me anyway). I've no idea whether they will try to replicate the existing greens or attempt to change them significantly, or even who is involved in the scheme. Maybe someone else on here knows more?

PS. I've emailed you re: Thursday