How far should ethics take golfers and architects?

[John Kavanaugh]

When does a whistleblower become a tattletale and can either survive in a club environment or in business.  I no longer thinks so and believe we just need to let it go and only worry about ourselves.  What are common ways people steal from clubs and members or architects steal from each other or the environment that are either forgivable or not.  Where are today's ethical boundries?

[John Kavanaugh]

Here are some common problems as a golfer:

Would you inform on someone who lives closer than they indicated on their membership application so they can pay a lower fee?

Would you inform on someone that brings a guest more times than allowed under the rules?

Would you inform on someone that uses a cart more than he signs for?

Would you inform on someone that steals range balls?

Would you inform on someone that refuses to ever repair a divot?

Would you inform on someone you knew sneaked on the course without paying?

All the above is based on the assumption that you first talked to the individual and they told you that you can go screw yourself and they will continue to do as they please.  

Common architect problems:

Would you call an architect and tell him if you knew someone was spreading lies about his work?

Would you report an architect that is filling in wetlands without a permit?

Would you inform a club if you knew an architect was purposely destroying the design intent of a classic course?

All this assumes you would talk to the offending party first and they said much like the golfer above.

[ed_getka]

John,
   I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this, but assuming you have talked to the person in question about whatever the issue is I would probably let the club know there is a problem. I wouldn't say so and so is doing this. I would just let them know that there is an issue and let them decide how important it is to address it.
   
   That is for the generic scenarios you listed above. I am still waiting for the bomb you are going to drop.

I didn't read far enough and missed the architect examples.

[ed_getka]

If someone were spreading lies I would talk to them directly only.

If an architect is destroying (I assume to do his own thing) the design intent of a classic, the membership will decide if they like what the architect is doing or not. If someone had a history of doing that sort of thing, and someone asked me what I thought about their plan to utilize him, I would let them know what his MO has been. Not to encourage them to not hire the guy, but just so they would be careful to get what the club wanted and not what the architect decided he would do.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ed,

I just added the architect examples and was thinking about adding some for golf writers.  It seems like plagerism is rampant as all I do is read the same story over and over no matter where I look.  I would guess golf writers are given a pass because it is such a light topic.

I really just want to go golf and have a great time doing it...I don't think you can do that unless you wear blinders to the thieves and idiots.

[George Pazin]

With the response the individual gave you, you would certainly seem justified getting involved.

[John Kavanaugh]

With the response the individual gave you, you would certainly seem justified getting involved.

Whistleblowers have trouble getting games or keeping jobs.  I'm close to saying that all these issues are so trivial that you just need to let them go.  I would love to see a young associate of an architect go against his boss for filling in a wet lands or not reporting a found bunker.  That is far more reaching than telling the pro that Johnny won't repair his ball marks or divots.

[George Pazin]

You're right, John, and I'm not saying you should get involved, simply that you would be justified if you do. It's your call, and I would understand whatever you decide to do.

[John Kavanaugh]

One trivial issue that I can not get a handle on is at the driving range.  How can you get people to hit balls properly in a tight area so they don't destroy the range for everyone.  I even remember an article in Golfweek a few years ago suggesting moving your ball all around the range so you can practice unlevel lies.  What can you do but ignore it and just hope it stops on its own.  Our pro has posted pics in the newsletter and on the board in the lockeroom of how and not to make a pattern.  I doubt that there is a solution beyond rubbing the offenders nose in it...and where does that get you.

[John Kavanaugh]

You're right, John, and I'm not saying you should get involved, simply that you would be justified if you do. It's your call, and I would understand whatever you decide to do.

This is all hypothetical and does not relate to any individuals where I may or may not be a member now or in the future.  That also goes for architects and golf writers that I may now know or in the future.

I am just now pissy over an insurance ethical issue I just had to deal with...assuming insurance agents have ethics that is.

[HamiltonBHearst]

There is no need to have any "whistleblowers" when the admissions committee does it's job properly.

[John Kavanaugh]

There is no need to have any "whistleblowers" when the admissions committee does it's job properly.

Exactly...That will always be a problem for me at any course that allows me to play.  Of course problems exist at public courses too.

[Mike_Young]

John,
I was recently at the PGA show and listened to a seminar on remodeling......the speaker was very keen on the words "peer review" and how all of this specific groups members went thru "peer review"...it was quite amusing......problem is peer review doesnt work whether it be a club or a business......for example if you are the member you speak of tha lives 5 miles closer to the club cutoff for out of town members and member A lets this be known.....your "peer review" of member A on other matters will be slanted....and same for business....
BUT in this country we have the free enterprise system as you are well aware and it is usually the client tha matters.....and if an architect doesnt have happy clients he will not be an architect no matter how great his "peer review" and if a member pisses off enough members he will not hang out for long.....
How do members steal.....well some of the guys at or club take toilet paper, deodorant, combs, towels.....bags full of tees instead of a handful, extra 9 in a cart w/o signing.....over age children using club....one buffet on two plates......AND the good thing about this is...everybody knows who these guys are.....

[John Kavanaugh]

I stole enough toilet paper in college from public restrooms that I may have singlehandedly been responsible for locked rolls. That is the only one that surpises me at a private club.

[Adam Clayman]

This is a prime example where golf just doesn't fit into any normal category and deserves special consideration as it pertains to liability laws and other "normal" trains of thought.

People who cheat in life deserve their fate. We should all hope that what goes around comes around.

People who cheat in golf should be called out. It's an inherent principle that we all come together on the first tee and play a game under the same rules.

Identifying character is central to the games I prefer to play. Be it poker or golf, anyone who can't handle the adversities thrown at them and are inclined to whine or cheat is information that the populous should be entilteled to.

Cheating on golf's most simple of principles is beyond low, and anything to expose those who think their little worlds are so important, above the rest of us, should take up bowling, or politics. o cheat on your wife, be miserable just leave the golfing to those who know how to spell scruples (sp?)

 

[Kalen Braley]

That last comment was dangerously close to the TMI category John...Dare I ask why??

[John Kavanaugh]

What is TMI and yes, please ask.

[Kirk Gill]

TMI = too much information.

A question. Is it ethical to put an architect's name on a course where that architect had little or no actual input on the design? The name may sell (memberships, or real estate, etc.), but is it ethical to use just the name and not the expertise of the person in question?

Is this done?

[John Kavanaugh]

Designed by Gary Roger Baird Design Intl.
Senior Architect Todd Eckenrode.

I just found the above on the Barona web site.  Do the Google on Barona and try to figure out who is the architect.  It can be a very confusing issue but I think that the guy who owns the firm that gets the job has earned the right to put his name on the letterhead.

[Ken Moum]

It seems like plagerism is rampant as all I do is read the same story over and over no matter where I look.  I would guess golf writers are given a pass because it is such a light topic.

Being a writer, plagiarism is a subject that's close to my heart.

I don't believe I've seen any golf writing that obviously qualifies.

There are, after all, only so many subjects in the world of golf, and there are lots of writers and editors who are looking for stories.

I don't think most folks in the creative art consider reinterpreting an old plot to be plagiarism. The general definition is passing off a copy of someone else's work as your own.

Are you actually seeing a lot of that in golf writing?

Ken

[John Kavanaugh]

Ken,

It would be difficult for me to give examples as I don't read anything about golf that is not on the internet.  I'm a paperless golfer.  Remind me next week when I will start working much longer hours and the rain looks like it is coming in...I will be happy to provide examples then and look forward to proving my baseless accusations.

[John Kavanaugh]

Augusta National is renowned for its pockets of roars that resonate through Amen Corner and along the back nine.

Gone were those roars that resonate along Amen Corner, as much a part of the Masters as the blazing colors of spring and the red numbers under par on the leaderboard.

Above are two quotes from two different articles about the Masters...Is that plagerism?  They were both AP so may have been from the same writer in that I have no clue how that works.

Go ahead and Google the words resonate amen corner Masters and see if the same guy is responsible for all 20,000 plus hits.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
Todd deserves every right to have his name on the design of Barona Creek. It's his solely his design. I know of only one hole which GRB actually had some input on and that was the location of the green on #8.

That job was secured by Todd and his partner Charlie who happens to be best friends with GRB, which they came to an amicable agreement to come up with that particular credit. There was nothing unethical about it.

What is the point of this slanderous thread? (before I delete it)

[Tom Yost]

A question. Is it ethical to put an architect's name on a course where that architect had little or no actual input on the design? The name may sell (memberships, or real estate, etc.), but is it ethical to use just the name and not the expertise of the person in question?

Is this done?

I found this back story behind the design of this course to be very interesting and perhaps close to answering your question:

http://www.golfgroupltd.com/legend_trail.html

I can't say if it's unethical because the parties involved agreed to the circumstance, but sad just the same that you will find no mention of Snyder/Richardson on the Legend Trail website or scorecard.


Tom

[John Kavanaugh]

What is the point of this slanderous thread? (before I delete it)

If I have slandered anyone it should be deleted.  I thought it was great that the Barona web site mentioned Todd as the architect.  It seems like a course where the issue is muddied by the course its self.

Please feel free to delete it as I am ready to leave work and will not be able to contribute anymore today and most of the weekend.