USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open

[JESII]

There is an old adage...Don't f*** with Mother Nature, and I am in full agreement, however...if a million dollars is going to be spent recontouring a few greens, why wouldn't someone research a method or protecting greens from rain (think of rain tarps for a baseball field) that does not comprimise air flow?

[Sean Leary]

Back to Merion; I hope the rumor posted in Golfweek is wrong about the greens being changed.  You are down there all the time Tom.  Do you know what is really happening there?    

Mark,

I was there last week before the Golfweek article come out, and the caddies were talking about it (it came up when we were on 12 green).

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

Mike McNulty, of Philadelphia Country Club suggested the very same idea.

[JESII]

He would know a hell of alot better than I about the ramifications to turf health. With the amount of money being invested across the country, I think I might have to talk to Mr. McNulty about a little side gig...

[wsmorrison]

No matter what other people say, Jim, I think you're a smart guy.  If you concur with Mike McNulty, well that just proves it  

[tomgoutman]

Merion 12 green should not be softened; it is requisite defense for what would otherwise be a short second shot.

[JESII]

Tom,


But when sped up to 13 feet it is nearly unplayable, I don't think anyone wants it unplayable...

[TEPaul]

"Back to Merion; I hope the rumor posted in Golfweek is wrong about the greens being changed.  You are down there all the time Tom.  Do you know what is really happening there?"

Mark:

Maybe I do and maybe I don't but I'm not going to discuss what may or may not happen at Merion on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com this time.

My posts on green speed limitation at around 11 above is not directed at or specific to Merion, that's for sure---it's how I feel generally speaking and across the board and I've been saying the very same thing for a few years. From my experiences greens at a maximum of 11 can challenge any level, that is provided they are in combination with a specific degree of green surface firmness when attempting to challenge the very best players.  

On a slightly different note I think the stimpmeter can be dangerous or highly useful depending on what purpose it's being used for. To insure that no green speeds are higher than around 11 I believe the stimpmeter can be a very useful tool. In an uncontrolled attempt to use it to constantly increase green speed and publicize same I believe it's a very dangerous and destructive tool.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,


But when sped up to 13 feet it is nearly unplayable, I don't think anyone wants it unplayable...

Then, don't bring the speed up to 13.

The tarp idea may be an unknown and risky in terms of mid-June, 90 degree weather and humidity.

Don't compare the turf quality of a green stimping at 13 with a baseball or football field.

[JESII]

Pat,


I understand the risks, as well as the disparity between the 12th green at Merion and the baseball field downtown. A significant amount of money is thrown at this green recontouring business at the behest of maintaining the challenge of the green through high green speeds...in support of Tom Paul's proposal to limit green speeds to 11, I would suggest a club could offset the "slower" speeds through "guaranteed" firmness.

The amount of money being spent on green reconstruction will attract someone smart enough to find a way to guarantee firmness for these clubs.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
It's called a SubAir system  

[TEPaul]

"...in support of Tom Paul's proposal to limit green speeds to 11, I would suggest a club could offset the "slower" speeds through "guaranteed" firmness."

Sully:

Obviously, I'm all for seeing this kind of limitation work while still attempting to hold a challenge level high but sane (for playability and the health of agronomy) as often and as consistently as possible but I have to be honest enough to say that attempting to "guarantee" a particular degree of green surface firmness is anywhere from very tricky business to down impossible and it that lies the problem. It's possible to produce very high green speed even with some adverse weather conditions but the same is not so true with green surface firmness.

Frankly, some of the very best tournament supers I know when confronted with this firm and fast request or demand from tournament committees or whatever with greens have gotten into saying; "Pick either firm OR fast and I'll produce it but I'm not going to deliver both in conditions that can put agronomy in the real danger zone."

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom Paul, your speeds of Oakmonts greens are off. With very little extra effort we were able to get them up to a **1/2. Avg. speed is usually no less than a **. I hope this helps    Anyways I am sure Mark knows the actual numbers and in good faith is not spilling the beans. They are pretty outrageous though.

[TEPaul]

Ryan:

I just amended my post #50 to read the way it's "SUPPOSED" to be written!  

But in the name of honesty, sanity and the protection of architecture and agronomy around the world there really is no reason why even Oakmont can't be upfront and put a number on these things, particularly if it really is around an 11. And if it's consistently higher they should both lie about it and call it lower or just stop it.

The time of any course anywhere bragging or promoting the perception that they are the fastest in the world is definitely at an end in my opinion, and that even includes Oakmont.

There is no question in my mind that Oakmont ran faster greens than any other course for years (and I even believe I know how they alone managed that so long ago) but now everyone is capable of doing what they once did and more and this perception that some course somewhere is the fastest in the world has got to stop. That now includes Oakmont.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Would you add "rebuilding old classic course greens for U.S. Opens" to that list of what has to stop  
Mark

[JESII]

Mark,


Can you honestly say you would refuse when a club scheduled to host the US Open asked you to work on their greens so they could be presented at 12 or 13 feet?

[Ryan Farrow]

Hahaha, good one Tom. Although I think the @#%#$ is more appropriate than the - - .

I too do not understand why everything has to be so hush-hush. I'm not sure if the green speeds are really intended to be secretive. I remember last year we were told not to answers any questions about maintenance practices in light of the coming US Open. Then I see an article someone posted on here where a former intern talked, in detail, about everything we do at Oakmont. I think the club is more than happy to reveal their practices and green speeds, they just want you to hear it directly from their managers/superintendents.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

One of the problems few want to address is the following.

If the green is altered, and it stimps at 13 for the U.S. Open,

How will it perform its architecturally intended purpose when  the Open leaves town and green speeds are dramatically reduced ?

I suspect that the members will inherit an inferior product, one only made viable when the green speeds approach or exceed 13.

So, what will that forebode ?

More speed, more softening of other greens ?

It's a destructive cycle with but one end, and that is that the distinctive life and the character will be squeezed out of green after green, in Ardmore and elsewhere, making greens more alike and mundane.

That the U.S.G.A. doesn't see the long term ramifications of this policy is more than surprising, especially when you re-read Ron Prichard's letter to them, authored more than a decade ago.

Shame on the members for permitting this travesty to be forced upon their great golf course.

[Mike_Young]

Jim,
It's called a SubAir system  

Mark,
I don't think Subair works on push up greens.......from what I have been told.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Leary,

In the ultimate, each club is responsible for being the curator of its golf course and is responsible for changes to that golf course.

That's not to say that external forces aren't also culpable in the process of disfiguration.


Mark Fine,

I"v never heard of the use of Sub-Air systems on push up greens.  Do you know of any courses that have installed the system on non-USGA greens ?

[Mark_Fine]

Mike/Pat,
Here is a list of courses using the SubAir system (off their website).  There are some older courses listed that at one time had push up greens (whether all of them have had their greens rebuilt, I do not know for sure).  For what it is worth.

Augusta National Golf Club
Barona Creek Golf Club
Bay Hill
Cassique (Kiawah Island)
Castle Pines
Colonial Country Club
Congressional Country Club
Dallas National Club
Dunes Golf and Beach Club
East Lake Golf Club
Galloway National
Harbour Town Golf Links
Hawks Ridge
LaCantera
Los Angeles Country Club
Pebble Beach Golf Links
Pinehurst #2
Quail Hollow Country Club
Robert Trent Jones Golf Club
Sage Valley Golf Club
Shadow Creek
Shoal Creek
Southern Hills
TPC Sugarloaf
TPC Sawgrass
Victoria National

[Mike_Young]

Mark,
All of those have some type of green layered green system with sub surface drainage.....
Mike

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Would you add "rebuilding old classic course greens for U.S. Opens" to that list of what has to stop.  
Mark

Mark:

Let me ask you something.

If Merion called you (and your new architecture company) up and told you they were going to go ahead with the recontouring of the 12th and 15th greens and asked you to get involved in the process, is that remark above how you would respond to them?

[Mike_Cirba]

I personally think they should dig up and re-do all 18 of Merion's greens to strict USGA specs.   Any annoying or otherwise unsightly contour can be easily removed during the process.   They've got plenty of time to do it between now and 2013 and if they get them flat enough, perhaps they can raise the stimp to 14 or 15 for the tournament.   That oughtta be good.

Mike Young...that's it...I'm coming to Atlanta.   If this doesn't outrage you, we have to talk.   See you the week of July 4th.  

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I'd study the situation and if I did not believe it was not the right thing to do, I would not do it nor recommend it, period!   What would you do?