[Matthew Hunt]

As you may or may not known me and a few other on GCA.com are people who would like to make a career out of GCA. I was hoping some people could volunteer the answers, I might do an 'In My Opinion' peice for others referance:

What is the best Univercity course to do?

Is there any GCA Scholarships?

Is there any non-Univercity routes into the Job?

How many GCA is there?

How many GCA company is there?

What does the pay start at and what is the pay scale?

What is the chances of getting work?

What can GCAs do if there is no work?

Is it true that demand for GCA will go down?

Thank, hope you can answer even one Question.

[Michael Dugger]

What is the best University course to do?

Probably the most direct route is attend any of about 40 landscape architecture programs in the U.S.  Is one better than another?  Well, Ivy League has always been quite respected.  RTJ, Doak and Hanse all attended Cornell.

Additionally, a couple of blokes around here (B. Phillips, Fat Baldy Drummer) attended Herriot Watt's MsC program in Edinburgh, Scotland.  The only bona fide program exclusively for gca I am aware of in the world.

Is there any GCA Scholarships?

Not that I am aware of, per se.  But I am sure the right person could parlay a scholarship into an internship or travel abroad.  Both Doak and Hanse won one to facilitate their travels to the mother land.

Is there any non-Univercity routes into the Job?

Sure.  Be rich and design your own course.  From there it all flows downhill, if the course is good.  Mike Strantz, for example, built courses for a number of years before Fazio recognized his talent and brought him on board as a design associate.  A top-notch, smart and dedicated construction guy can get into design, for sure.  The relationship between design and construction is so integral to quality final products that often times these kind of guys are the best.  Any wonder Doak and Hanse both know how to operate heavy equipment?  It's not a coincidence.

How many GCA is there?

worldwide?  I would guess less than 500

How many GCA company is there?

There are design firms and there are golf course construction companies.  In the U.S.?  Probably about 100-200 of each.

What does the pay start at and what is the pay scale?

If this matters to you then you are looking into the wrong kind of work.  I'd design my first course for free.  This is such a competitive business, Matt, you will do whatever you can to even get a sniff from someone.  Of course, at the top it is VERY lucrative.  Jack N. and Fazio charge in the millions PER JOB.

What is the chances of getting work?

Probably less likely than you curing cancer, finding Osama bin Laden or winning the powerball.  About as likely as making it in the big leagues, going on tour or long jumping 25'

What can GCAs do if there is no work?

Write books.  Play golf for a living.  Some gcas are golf professionals.  Some could/are greenskeepers.  Some don't need to worry about it, they are rich!

Is it true that demand for GCA will go down?

Who knows?

.

[Paul Stephenson]

Michael,

What is the employment rate from Herriot Watt's MsC program?  Do GCA firms actively recruit the graduates there?

[Matthew Hunt]

That For all the advice Micheal

[ed_getka]

Matthew,
   I think the best place to start is by contacting some golf architecture firms, and ask your questions of associates or the head guy if possible.

There have to be some courses being built somewhere around where you are. Go and ask questions.

Do not under any circumstances go into this field if your objective is to make lots of money. For that matter don't go into ANY field with the objective of making lots of money. Find something to be passionate about and you either will 1)not care what you are making or 2) will be so incredibly successful that you will have money without even thinking about it.

You do not have to go to university to get into this field. At least not into landscape/architecture degrees. Contact Joe Hancock who I think would be happy to give suggestions. Joe has a golf course, knows superintendent stuff, and has done some work with Mike DeVries. A new intern for Tom Doak I just met has a history degree and worked the past couple of years tending bar in a clubhouse. So there are many ways to do this.

I would strongly recommend you read Driving the Green by John Strawn to understand some of the realities of what the job entails.

Good luck.

[Jim Nugent]

First the caveat.  I have zero experience with golf course architects.  

That said, I believe you strongly help your goal by getting in touch with some good (or great) working architects.  Try to arrange summer jobs with them, or even jobs after school, if that is possible.  Tell them your dream.  Ask them what advice/suggestions they have for you.  

This accomplishes two things.  You get hands on experience, with the people who are doing exactly what you want to do.  And the architects get to know you.  If you're good, if you impress them, those contacts will be priceless later on.  

[Joe Hancock]

Matthew,

Get a job on any nearby course doing maintenance. Learn about daily setup, maintenance issues, and learning how to work with people.

Then, after some schooling, get a job on a course construction crew. Learn how dirt gets moved, and why it gets moved. Learn how to get rid of excess water, and learn how to build things efficiently.

Most importantly, ask more questions and listen vs. talking in an attempt to prove how smart you are.

Joe

[Brian Phillips]

Michael,

What is the employment rate from Herriot Watt's MsC program?  Do GCA firms actively recruit the graduates there?

Paul,

Nearly everyone off my year are in employment in a design office.  I have my own business. One is working for David Kidd, one for EGD, one in Aussie..not sure where they all are but most are working.

The MSc course in Scotland is no longer affiliated with the EIGCA and would now recommend people applying for the 2 year distance learning course that the EIGCA runs itself.

I am now on the Education Board for this course and am sat in Portugal as I write after spending half a week with the students on the current course.

They have another week here starting their Major Design Project which is due to be delivered in August in St. Andrews where they will have another two weeks of seminars.

The course is a very good start for anyone wanting to get into the industry and learn the ins and outs of being a GCA.

The next course begins in August with 17 students having been offered a place out of over 200 applications.

Brian

[Tom_Doak]

What is the best Univercity course to do?
My major was in Landscape Architecture, but it doesn't really matter that much if you can get your foot in the door.  You learn 90% of the business by working for someone.

Is there any GCA Scholarships?

Is there any non-Univercity routes into the Job?
Yes, but as in all other walks of life, you'll be competing for a limited number of jobs with a bunch of people who do have degrees.

How many GCA is there?
Too many, really ... many are struggling and there is always a shake-out process going on.  But, as Geoff Cornish wrote to me 28 years ago, there is always room for people with real talent.

How many GCA company is there?

What does the pay start at and what is the pay scale?
I started at $4.50 an hour on a construction crew for Pete Dye.  (If you're not willing to start at the bottom, good luck.)  The pay gets gradually better from there.  I don't know what most design associates make, but mine are doing pretty well.  Architects' incomes vary wildly depending on the state of the business.

What is the chances of getting work?
It's highly competitive.  You have to be good and you have to be focused and it doesn't hurt to be lucky.

What can GCAs do if there is no work?
You should be willing and able to work on construction crews for some time to learn the business, and even to fall back on that if you can't find work on your own.  Some GCA's are landscape architects as well, but it is hard to be taken seriously as a golf course architect if you're also in another business.  MDugger's response of "write books" is pretty silly.

Is it true that demand for GCA will go down?
Nobody knows, but I believe we saw a peak in 2000 and it will be quite a while before it peaks again.  Golf architecture is really a "development" business so demand runs in concert with the general health of the economy.  There is nearly always somewhere things are growing, if you're willing to pick up and move internationally to work on it.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I agree with Doak.

The best way to work your way into the business is through construction. Besides learning about all the things related to building a golf course, the experience will teach you two important lessons:

1) extended periods away from home, family, and friends, some times living in mediocre rooms, apartments, hotels; and,

2) doing a lot of hard work with relatively little pay.

If you can handle these two aspects of the golf course design and construction business, it's a good start; because it doesn't change much as you move your way up!  

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

One more word of advice.  You have to have patience.

You'll hear on this web site from many guys who have "taken the plunge" and found work in the industry.  I'm happy for them, but many are still a long way from getting to where they want to be.  For a better look at reality, here is my own timeline:

Age 18 - transferred college program to pursue golf architecture
Age 20 - first summer job with Pete Dye
Age 25 - first design commission on my own
Age 30 - three courses to my name.  I remember interviewing Jay Morrish for GOLF Magazine around this time, who was just making his name in the business, and realizing it had taken him until he was 51 years old!  Reality check.
Age 36 - five courses to my name, finally over the hump and knowing I would survive on my own
Age 39 - built Pacific Dunes
Age 46 - today

Getting from where you are to building Pacific Dunes was 21 years of hard work and focus, and I had a lot of luck along the way.  And the people who met me when I was 18 would tell you that I was smart and focused and had most of the tools to succeed back then.  Just like a professional athlete, you can be really talented, but if you don't work your butt off you are not going to get to the elite level.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Excellent post, Tom. Patience is a virtue, as they say.

I think it's helpful, too, for aspiring golf architects to forget dreaming about becoming a "name" in the industry - at least in the short term - and simply enjoy creating golf courses with whoever you have a chance to work with.

That's basically where I'm at now. I have no huge burning desire to stray from Rod Whitman. We have some very interesting projects under construction and in development that'll be "Rod Whitman designs"; which is fine. I'm just enjoying the learning experiences, and the freedom Rod gives me to participate with creation of golf courses - contributing design ideas, shaping bunkers and greens, etc.  

I'm happy to have a job that isn't really work, as defined by most people.

If in the future my gained knowledge and experiences bring solo projects, great. But I'm not going to worry about that possibility in my current position as Rod's associate; which, again, is a very nice position to be in when my buring desire is simply to create great golf courses.  

[Joe Hancock]

Tom and Jeff,

Do you see no value in actually working on a maintenance crew as one of the steps, or is it just not the way y'all did it?

Joe

[Brian Phillips]

I agree with much of what Tom and Jeff are saying.  I also come from a construction background.  That is why I went on the MSc program because I felt I needed a theory side to what I was hoping to create on the ground.

Joe,

Although coming from a maintenance crew is helpful how do you see that helping you to design apart from the famous saying 'form follows function'?  By that I mean, as a greenkeeper you can design slopes that you know can be mowed, you will know what type of grasses that will work but so do most of in the industry anyway.

Being on site watching everything get built is probably the most important way to learn about how a course gets built.

I do believe, however that you will learn a lot more about strategy, the thought process of design, grading plans,safety or green designs etc. on the EIGCA's or the MSc course in Scotland than you would spending time in the dirt on a construction site.

Brian

[Matthew Hunt]

Ed, thank for the Advice. I am going to buy that “Driving the Green” book.

Joe + Jim, I have looking for a GCA related summer job but Irish golf is a very small fish tank but I’m still looking!

Brain, the MSc. at Edinburgh is the course I have always planned to do but the EIGCA course looks just as cool. Could I do either of the course straight out of school or would I have to do another degree first?

Jeff, Thank for what you said and you have a great way of thinking about your job and I greatly admire it.  

Tom, are you saying it is better to start with a degree, of any sort? You advised that “writing books” is not a viable option for a GCA but I was thinking of using Golf Journalism as a back-up option. The Time-line was very interesting and helpful and I must say you are looking younger tan your 46 years from your photos I would have put you as sub 40.

In the last couple of months I was considering not going into GCA, but now I want to do it now 100%. If anyone is in the the RCD area, please contact me if you could spare time for a chat or a round.

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

If you are 100% sure of what you want to do, and you can find a job in golf construction when you graduate from school with some hope of moving on to the next job, then go for it.

If you're only 99% sure, go to college and broaden your outlook, and then you'll really be 100% sure one way or the other.

My career path has spawned the fallacy that someone can break into golf architecture by being a "golf journalist" (your term not mine, my mom was a real journalism major and the golf side rarely rises to that level, but that's another story).  I never made much of a living at golf writing, I've always made more in my day job and luckily I had some $ in the bank when I started.  More importantly, there was never a moment from the time I got back from my postgraduate award when I wasn't working in golf course design/construction ... which is quite a bit different from some of the other golf writer / architects on the fringes of the business today.

Brian:

Can't one learn about strategy while working on construction, just by thinking through the golf course you are working on?  I met someone last month who is enrolled in the newer MSc program, and was told that a lot of the curriculum was boilerplate stuff about what is "fair" or "not fair" in design, not exactly cutting-edge game theory.

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

The Msc has now changed and has nothing to do with the EIGCA.  I was teaching last week and told all of my students to study the briefs they get from us but to always think 'outside of the box'.

I told them to always come up with more than one idea for their work possibly one that works with the brief but also at least one or two that are different and can help the client with ideas for a project.

Yes, of course you can discuss strategy on a construction site....if you have time to do that.

Many people forget the whole point of a Masters program.  You are there to be briefed and directed in a certain way but you only get out of a Masters what the students themselves put into it.  It is not the same as a Bachelor degree where you are educated nearly 100%.

Anyone who complains that they are not getting enough out of a Masters program is just not discussing or researching enough themselves.  If the curriculum is set up well (which both programmes are) then it is pretty much up to the student.

Brian

[paul cowley]

Matthew....this is one tough business, not for the weak of heart or persons lacking true commitment to their goals.
I have already counselled my two teen-aged sons not to follow their father. Emulation doesn't pay the bills.

Not sure yet about my six year old daughter....tough little thing, a kindergartner reading advanced reader books on the forth grade level.

I'm not sure whether I should shield or expose her to my world.

But some girls are tougher than boys....and more of a pain at times.....but maybe she could handle this business....maybe.

[Ally Mcintosh]

brian,

i believe i met you briefly at the EIGCA AGM in portmarnock... i have just been offered a place on the upcoming diploma starting is september so it sounds like i'll hopefully be meeting you again on this course...

...i come from an engineering design and construction management background... i have been advised that a good way to get experience (and still earn some money) during the two years that the diploma runs is to try and get work with one of the specific golf course contractors based in ireland... whether they'll have me is a different matter altogether...  

[RT]

We get several inquiries coming through our office, and I recommend the shaper path as an alternative option.

When one becomes operational and can do the magic as a shaper, and I mean can "shape", it can be a relatively lucrative way in this business and you can meet golf archies, plus travel to vaying places.

But you must be ready to be a mercenary and go to the jobs, and much like gca there's ALOT of time involved away from what would one would considered as their "home", plus long office hours.

Its all dreamy and heady stuff, but this is the reality to contend with if that is a priority for oneself.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt — It is truly a profession that you can get into if you are determined and passionate. I cannot say that about many fields...but golf design is one that seems to winnow out the bad from the good...the drived from the bored...and the learned from the lame.

You will do fine if you keep with it, read, listen and are persistent.

[David Lott]

Demand may not go down, but supply sure as hell is going up.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()