[Tom Huckaby]

Joe:

And where did any of us claim to be expert?

I defer to your knowledge of the course most definitely.

But that also doesn't mean I can't come up with a numerical value for "shot values."  And given it's an opinion, I'd have to say it has some validity.  Note also all I said is I disagree with you, not that you are wrong.  Your opinion obviously has validity as well, perhaps greater than mine.

Peace, brother.

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, good try but one does not play to the wrong hole on Pacific. I am with John Kirk on PD being a bit more demanding shot wise as well.  These are resort courses and were never meant to be other wise, ie private. I am 4 PD, 2 BT, 2BD currently. If it is a 5 round trip it would be 3PD ,1BT,1BD. I used to be 3 or 4 to 1 PD before Trails. PD always gets the extra round now that I have played Trails enough to feel I know it. I gave Trails the final round last summer. It was a 7 PD, 4 BT, 2 BD, 1 par 3 and 1 sheep ranch trip. Trails reminded me of how very good the good holes are at BD. However, PD is a world class course and the others are just very good courses in a great setting.

[Tom Huckaby]

JB:

I can live with all of that, preferences for courses being very personal, of course.. except... the same people who'd play to the wrong hole at BD would do so at PD.  I'm telling you man the visuals are uncannily similar.  Check it out next time there.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Call me crazy but I actually like the effect on BD #13 when you think you're playing to #17 green.  You can't believe the green is that far away and then, revelation, it isn't.  You're susceptible to those thoughts even after you've played it more than once.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

I can see liking the effect.  And I can confirm that one can still fall for playing to the wrong green... last time there I did exactly that - inadvertently steering Messrs. Benham and Pieracci toward 17 green on their second shots on 13!  That should have been the last time they listened to me.... Turned out not to matter, either... they each got to where their second shots ended up and each was a bit further right than perfect, but not dead at all.  They easily played up to the correct green.

Meanwhile the kid here had gone way left anyway, due to my semi-common pull... which turned out to be perfect... subconscious?  You tell me.

My excuse for all of this anyway:  it was pouring and freezing and I was very tired and it had been a few years since I played the course.

 

[Kalen Braley]

The only "unusual" thing I found about PD is just getting from 11 green to 12 tee.  Thankfully we had a on course host to direct us to where to go. But I think I would have scurred about to and fro for 5 minutes trying to figure out that one without him.

On a slighty different deviant here.  How about this alternate routing at Bandon resort.  Play 1-6 on Bandon, then jump straight over to 11 and finish up from there.  That'd be a cool composite course..although you would come up 4 holes short..

[Joe Bentham]

anyone who stands on 3 tee at PD and thinks they are playing to 12 green shouldn't be there in the first place....As for 13 at BD my only question is how many 800 yard par 5's have you played?  17 is clearly not the green simply because of how far away it is.  As for the walk from 11 to 12 tee, if you can't read the signs you deserve to get lost.

[Kalen Braley]

you seem a little cranky today Joe...everything going OK??

As to the walk from 11 to 12 on PD...maybe there are signs, but being right next to the coast, that was the last thing we in the group were looking at....

[Tom Huckaby]

anyone who stands on 3 tee at PD and thinks they are playing to 12 green shouldn't be there in the first place....As for 13 at BD my only question is how many 800 yard par 5's have you played?  17 is clearly not the green simply because of how far away it is.  As for the walk from 11 to 12 tee, if you can't read the signs you deserve to get lost.

Agreed completely.  But my point was that if you call the visual an "amateur architectural mistake" as my friend JB did about BD, well then the same mistake exists at PD.  I personally don't think a mistake exists at either course, for just the reasons you state.

[Sean Leary]

you seem a little cranky today Joe...everything going OK??

As to the walk from 11 to 12 on PD...maybe there are signs, but being right next to the coast, that was the last thing we in the group were looking at....

The quickest way is to walk in front of 5 teebox, if one were wont to do so. It is a bit of a hike, and not super clear, to walk around.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean was there less sleet going that way? Tom there are not the drainage issues with the catch basins on PD you have on BD. You do not have the cramed in somewhat questionable holes on PD you do on BD(16,17,18.) BD has many architectural busts that PD does not have at all. The visuals are just the begging. A completely blind second shot on the first which is being corrected now. That is no way to open at resort course. That is followed with long a long walk to next tee. I think that was not real well thought out from a design point of view. You have to hit a poor tee ball to have blind shot at PD #1.

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmm....

Lots of long hikes at PD, JB.  In fact more than BD.  As for the rest, I love the current first hole at BD.. to me it's shame they're moving that green.  And they're doing so not because of the golf hole per se, but because they built so many more buildings to the right side of that hole, buildings now in play.  Did Kidd know those buildings were gonna be there?  If so, call that a mistake.  If not, call it a damn good golf hole - every bit the quality of #1 at it's cousins to either side.

Catch basins?  Hmmmm..... take a gander at 16 PD before casting aspersions at BD, my friend.  I'll take landing on a little drain (and thus getting relief) over 95% chance of landing in a divot every day of the week.

 

[Joe Bentham]

you seem a little cranky today Joe...everything going OK??

As to the walk from 11 to 12 on PD...maybe there are signs, but being right next to the coast, that was the last thing we in the group were looking at....

The quickest way is to walk in front of 5 teebox, if one were wont to do so. It is a bit of a hike, and not super clear, to walk around.

Sean--
Great idea...if you want to walk right in front of  5 tee and run the risk of taking a 5 iron in the head.  The walk is there for a reason.  You just played back to back par 3's.  The walk from 11 to 12 covers the ground you didn't cover playing the par3's.  

[Joe Bentham]

Sean was there less sleet going that way? Tom there are not the drainage issues with the catch basins on PD you have on BD. You do not have the cramed in somewhat questionable holes on PD you do on BD(16,17,18.) BD has many architectural busts that PD does not have at all. The visuals are just the begging. A completely blind second shot on the first which is being corrected now. That is no way to open at resort course. That is followed with long a long walk to next tee. I think that was not real well thought out from a design point of view. You have to hit a poor tee ball to have blind shot at PD #1.

Tiger--
since when was the second at #1 @ BD blind?  News to me.  If you hit driver from the green tees and run it down there too far, that is your fault not the golf hole's.  The elevation in the second shot is somewhat unique for BD, and makes for a great starting hole.  The new green had nothing to do with the way number 1 played, it was only a way to have the mis-placed buildings hit less.  And since the new green has been done we've played it for less then a month total.  Very telling if you ask me...

[Kalen Braley]

Huck,

Well agreed on 16 at PD.  Getting caught up in those two collection areas without lying in a divot is a small miracle. That is an interesting question on #1 at BD..did Kidd know there would eventually be all the buildings just to the right of the fairway and green complex?

Joe,

We did have a guide there to escort us to number 12, and he did take us right in front of the 5th tee which I thought was a bit odd.  But based on Seans comments it appears the original intent was to walk past 5 tee and then back track a bit over to 12 tee.

Either way, I was too busy checking out the scenery to be distracted/bothered by that.

[Tim Pitner]

BD has many architectural busts that PD does not have at all. The visuals are just the begging. A completely blind second shot on the first which is being corrected now. That is no way to open at resort course.

Tiger,

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.  One of the reasons I love Bandon is because it's not typical resort golf.  Now, you'd have Bandon Dunes conform to some standard principle of resort golf.  No thanks.  I understand pace of play concerns, but I don't see them as that pressing on BD 1 and 2.  I'm going to miss the old BD #1 a lot.  Hopefully, the old green will still be in play occasionally (like, say, when I'm there).  

[Sean Leary]

you seem a little cranky today Joe...everything going OK??

As to the walk from 11 to 12 on PD...maybe there are signs, but being right next to the coast, that was the last thing we in the group were looking at....

The quickest way is to walk in front of 5 teebox, if one were wont to do so. It is a bit of a hike, and not super clear, to walk around.

Sean--
Great idea...if you want to walk right in front of  5 tee and run the risk of taking a 5 iron in the head.  The walk is there for a reason.  You just played back to back par 3's.  The walk from 11 to 12 covers the ground you didn't cover playing the par3's.  

I would rather risk a 5 iron off the head, than deal with the major Flowus Interruptus of walking back to the 12 tee

I guessed you missed the "if one was wont to do so" part of my comment.

I never thought the second at 1 at BD was blind.  The second at 1 at PD is definitely blind from the right side of the fairway if you don't get over the slope (particularly from the back tee).

[Andy Hodson]

To give my answer to the title of the thread, the term shot values is subjective simply by definition. And there are definitely horses for courses. No matter the hole or the course, there just are certain shots that fit the eye, or don't, depending on the player.

That said, looking back on my trip to BD 3 years ago, I feel Bandon is measurably harder than Pacific. But that could be because Bandon has certain holes or shots that just don't fit me (and Pac does); or because we were first group off of Bandon both mornings; and because of the early Bandon tee times the Oregonian wine hadn't run its course just yet. And, thus, regardless of the weather the "fog" had lifted by the time we got to Pacific.

So, I while I think Pacific has "cooler" shot values, Bandon may have "harder" shot values. At least for me.

Pretty subjective, as I said.

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