Profile of Marquette GC (Greywalls) Posted

[Sean_Tully]

In fact I love all of the wildly undulating true “Devresianesque” type greens that pose a distinctive challenge and demand a carefully executed chip or putt, and otherwise may be considered “controversial”.

Josh, I believe the correct term is "Devriesian."
Love that picture.

My favorite part of the trip was standing on the first tee and listening to Mike describe the hole. As I recall it was with hand gesture, his own style of sound effects, and his energy as he described a landing area in the fairway of roughly 15 feet in circumference.  Lots of movement and some really fun holes. I played with a member and as we hit our tee shots on the 11th, he commented that he did not like the hole because of the bunker in the middle of the fairway kept his driver in the bag. HMMMMmmmmm. I still hit driver(persimmon) and my ball found the bunker as if on cue and I managed to drain my putt from 6 feet for a birdie!

My other favorites are the 9 and 10. For some reason, as i type this I like how they are set up in the round, similar to the 8 and 9 at Cypress. #9 with the emphasis on placement off the tee and #10 as a driveable par four with danger lurking. I loved the feel of the course and had hoped to see it along with Kingsley, but had some travel issues that didn't allow for it. I look forward to getting back and seeing Kingsley, The Mines, and CD of course.

Tully

[Brian Cenci]

I joined the first day I played it in May of 2005 for $990....and I still pay my $300 a year national dues.  All I need to do is play twice a year up there and I make my money back.

-Brian

National membership at 990 initiation plus 300 per year in dues. If I were retired in Arizona, I would jump right on that. Is there anything near the value/quality combination for northerners wanting a national membership in Arizona?

[Peter Pallotta]

John M - thanks much for posting/reviewing.

Mike D - this might be a dumb thing to say, but the course looks absolutely lovely, which is the best compliment I know to give. I'm guessing that creating something lovely is half the challenge, but for me it's more than half the pleasure/fun.

Peter  

[Steve Lang]

 

Great Profile for a great course..

some larger perspectives are in order, like for the 11th



This course demands study before play, and restudy after  play..  In that local knowledge is so important, one will struggle if not in control of their game, and posessing some strategic thought one most every shot.

We saw one brave soul walking.. asked how it was, and he said the worst part was just getting to the start..

While i loved the tee view, I felt the 18th was ultimately a disappointment, anti-climatic, a let-down from the otherwise spectacular findings for folks at Greywalls.  Why the flat & boring final ending?  

[Mike_DeVries]

Geoffrey: I think Mike's quote is somewhat similar to Bill Coore's thoughts on how helpful "quiet moments" are in a course's routing.  If every hole is a jaw-dropper, you eventually run into sensory overload.  

I like Bill's thought on this concept.  I tend to think of it as a part of the rhythm and flow of the course, so those crests might be the highlights and the quiet moments might be the trough of the wave -- each situation is different and the combination of these elements with many others is what makes a course special.  

And just to clarify, just because a hole or sequence is one of these quieter moments doesn't mean that it is poor or uninteresting golf.  Often, going from the more spectacular setting or view might play with a golfer's psyche and they won't focus as well (just like a half par hole might affect a golfer's mental approach to a hole in his match) and that "quiet" hole might just prove to be more of a regular challenge to the golfer and one of their favorite holes -- the quality of the hole will win out over time.

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

  One of the interesting challenges of the course are some of the "terraced" (for lack of a better word) fairways.

Ed,
 
I don't know what you mean by this, could you provide an example or two?

Thanks,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

When we played Greywalls together in September of 2005 I recall you mentioning that you felt the 7th green complex was amongst your favorite that you’ve ever built.  Can you elaborate a bit and explain what separates it from the other greens at Greywalls, Kingsley, The Mines, etc.  

Josh,

Well, first of all, picking a favorite hole or feature is almost like picking your favorite child -- it is impossible and unfair to do so in most instances, as each one has its own special story or qualities that give it a personal meaning.

That being said, I think the 7th at Greywalls is one of the better ones I have done for many reasons:
- the variety of shots you can approach with it vary, from a pure aerial attack from the elevated landing area to a running approach off the backed ridge in the right approach.  Players will have to assess their current lie and figure out the best way to attack the pin or play conservatively.
- the undulations provide for many interesting putts and putting options, from wildly breaking lag putts to hard-to-read 3-footers.
- the optical illusion of the pitch of the green is very difficult to read on first notice.  The downhill aspect of the hole carries out in most of the drainage of the green, therefore much of the surface runs away from your approach when it actually appears to tilt from back to front, due to the shift in grade change percentage.
- the contours around the green provide plenty of hazard for most golfers and eliminate the need for any bunkers.  The options for variety of recovery shots are diverse and comprehensive.

So, I don't know if that separates it from other greens I have done, but that is what I really like about the green.

Great picture!

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike D - this might be a dumb thing to say, but the course looks absolutely lovely, which is the best compliment I know to give. I'm guessing that creating something lovely is half the challenge, but for me it's more than half the pleasure/fun.

Peter  

Peter,

Hey, thanks for the compliment!    I look forward to hearing what you have to say after playing it.

Cheers!

[Mike_DeVries]

some larger perspectives are in order, like for the 11th



While i loved the tee view, I felt the 18th was ultimately a disappointment, anti-climatic, a let-down from the otherwise spectacular findings for folks at Greywalls.  Why the flat & boring final ending?  

Steve,

Are you looking for more commentary on the 11th?

How would you feel about the 18th if it was a par 4?  This hole has caused more controversy than any other (maybe that is a good sign, as MacKenzie would have noted!) because it is different.  I believe it is the correct way to finish as it represents the "ride out" at the end of the roller coaster ride, with the crazy landing area pinching down into a tight funnel and then mild ripples floating out in a broad valley in great contrast, with the Knobs jutting up behind the green.  The green is generous and can defend itself just fine (5.05 average in the Club Championship stroke play qualifying).  Yes, it will offer an opportunity for a birdie at the finish - GREAT, give them a chance to halve their match and leave smiling.  The course is a series of contrasts in many respects, with beautiful long distance views, vertical rock walls (70' cliffs left of the 18th valley if you didn't notice), tumbling bumbling fairways, and also the broad valley of the 18th which doesn't dictate how you must play it but local knowledge will be essential to attacking it for an advantage over an opponent (or yourself).

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

John and everyone,

Thanks again for the review and comments.  I hope I got to everyone's questions so far -- if not, let me know!  

Mike  

[ed_getka]

Mike,
   Terraced is not really the right word. The drop off to the right of #1 fairway (the areas I will be describing are generally where some rock outcroppings are). The dropoff at the end of #2 fairway, the plateau on the left of #4 fairway that then drops down on the right to a lower level, again because of the granite. #7 in the landing area for the drive, there is sort of a central plateau, then drops off to the left side over the granite. Those are the things I am talking about. What would you call them?
    I think they are interesting, because in some ways they remind me of the depressions you encounter at NGLA on a few holes where you end up with a blind shot.
    On a different topic I can see your point about the flow of a round and quiet moments, but I don't think an 18th hole is the time for a quiet moment. The 18th green with the hump in the middle can certainly defend itself. Especially for those who have to bring an approach or pitch across it to get to the pin. However, I felt like the hole screamed for a central fronting bunker in front of the green. And you did too at some point as it is in one of your drawings of the layout. I know we talked about this before, but for the interest of anyone else who might want to know, why did you decide not to use the bunker.
    These are just the ramblings of a rank amateur. I still think you are a genius.
     I look forward to seeing your next project.

[Mike_DeVries]

  Terraced is not really the right word. The drop off to the right of #1 fairway (the areas I will be describing are generally where some rock outcroppings are). The dropoff at the end of #2 fairway, the plateau on the left of #4 fairway that then drops down on the right to a lower level, again because of the granite. #7 in the landing area for the drive, there is sort of a central plateau, then drops off to the left side over the granite. Those are the things I am talking about. What would you call them?
    On a different topic I can see your point about the flow of a round and quiet moments, but I don't think an 18th hole is the time for a quiet moment. The 18th green with the hump in the middle can certainly defend itself. Especially for those who have to bring an approach or pitch across it to get to the pin. However, I felt like the hole screamed for a central fronting bunker in front of the green. And you did too at some point as it is in one of your drawings of the layout. I know we talked about this before, but for the interest of anyone else who might want to know, why did you decide not to use the bunker.
 

Ed,

I understand your idea of terrace now -- maybe they are just plateaus in the fairway versus "terraced fairways" which sounds a bit more like an entire fairway that has tiers to it?  Plateau sound like a landform and terrace like an intended, manufactured formation -- ultimately, you could use either term for what you are describing, which are part of a larger area.

I don't think 18 is one of those "quiet" moments as it was being discussed before, but it is the postlude, the culminating run out after the final act, the afterword that cleanses and completes the course, maybe with a twist if you are not careful.  There were a variety of versions that included bunkers, both around the green and short of it, but once I started working the green and noticing the small intricacies and approach & recovery decisions, the bunker became useless, a crutch that would give too much information and definition to the player, giving the edge to the big hitter that could carry it aerially yet thwart the shorter hitter who needs to run the ball in.  I want players to be aggressive and go for it, but you better be precise and have an idea of where you want to miss it, because a poor choice will leave you scrambling and then thinking that it was so easy, but didn't get the birdie!  And, there was always the option to call it a par 4 for a tournament, if par was an issue -- that was discussed openly.  I think John summed it up quite well.

Cheers!
Mike

[ed_getka]

Mike,
  Thanks for the explanation on #18. I certainly haven't played the hole enough times to know all the nuances. I would agree with your idea that not having the bunker entices you to go for it, since you feel like there is no risk. As I noted the hump in the middle of the green can make the approach tricky if you have to get across it to get to the hole. Any other nuances escaped me on my first visit.
   That is an interesting statistic about the stroke average on #18 for the club championship. Where was the pin? What would you say are the toughest pin positions on that hole?

[TEPaul]

MikeD:

Lovely looking course there. Just looking at those hole photos I would have to say the course looks like it has what I would describe as a very high intensity level.

I found this caption under a photo of the 2nd green;

"The approach to the sloping 2nd green beyond a ravine. A ball landing ten yards left of the green could finish to the right of the green",

and looking at the green and that description of a ball landing ten yards left perhaps finding its way over to the right of the green, I was wondering if the 13th at Crystal Downs occured to you in this particular green and green-end?  

[Brian_Sleeman]

I can attest to the subtle difficulties of the 18th.  One thing photos can't capture is how fast and firm the place plays, and the approach to the 18th is no exception.  It seems nearly impossible to stop a ball in the front and center of the green from 200+ yards out (or less), and I've seen the majority of most players within reach mis-judging the speed of the approach and knocking it over the back as a result.

And the short game shots around the green are no bargain, either, particularly if you find yourself on the opposite side from the flag.  You've got to barely crest it over the mound in the center of the green to have any chance of getting it close.  It really requires some significant touch.

For me personally, that second shot was always one of the most fun in a round that is always full of fun shots.  It's all right in front of you, you know the undulations are there, and you're easily within range to expect a birdie.  With the fast and firm conditions, you can often take a couple of clubs less and punch the ball to try to control the amount of roll you'll get on the end of the shot.

Basically, it takes the joy and creativity of a bump and run 7-iron from 100 yards and stretches it out to a bump and run long iron from something in the 200 yard range.

It also continues the series from the previous 17 holes of continually presenting unique and thoughtful shots by providing the player with yet another shot they haven't played during any other part of the round.  

Another thought that comes to mind regarding the 18th: for the previous 17 holes, the player is constantly fed a steady diet of visual intimidation to put some fear into their bones (and give them a great sense of accomplishment when they pull something off).  The 18th does just the opposite: it presents what looks like the easiest shot on the golf course, enticing the player into a feeling of overconfidence, and then wreaks havoc on their golf ball by subtlely steering it away from their intended target.  They walk off with a par or bogey and scratch their heads at the latest turn of events, and, like all the other holes, puts the immediate motivation in their mind to go back and try it all over again.

Of all the holes on Greywalls it's the one that takes the most plays to really appreciate, and as a result, many first-timers come back to the shop with a less than enthusiastic impression of it.  Ask them what they scored, though, and they usually say par at best...

[Mike_DeVries]

Ed,
Toughest pins would depend on what you are trying to do: get the ball really close on your lengthy approach could be the back center, which falls away quite fast but allows an aggressive chip uphill, and anything on the crest of the bump in the middle leaves a delicate recovery shot.  It is a generous sized green and there are a lot of great pins -- variety for a couple of weeks, really.

Tom Paul,
Yes, there is definitely some high intensity to the golf course and that goes back to the earlier comments about "sensory overload" -- I think there is a very good rhythm and flow to the course so that the intensity doesn't continuously sustain itself and it makes the golf work; that was definitely one of the biggest challenges I had on the project.

As to the 13th at the Downs, no, not really, since this green has two distinct tiers, high left and lower right, with the separation on a bit of a 1 o'clock--7 o'clock angle, depending on your position on the fairway, of course.  Whereas the 13th at CD has the cavernous bunker left of the green, the 2nd at Greywalls has a large ridge that is all fairway height, so a ball will release down to the green, probably to the lower level.  The approach directly in front of the green is a deep bowl (turf) that bleeds out into the ravine, requiring an aerial shot at the green or a bump/running shot to the left to feed onto the green.  There is also a very narrow ramp between the bowl on the right and ridge on the left that can be used (Brian or others will probably tell me I'm nuts to even call it a play since it is so small, but think of it for recovery options also instead of just a long approach).

Brian, thanks for the other comments -- you have had as many opportunities to play and study the hole since it has been open as anyone, so that is great to hear your insight.

Mike

[Brian_Sleeman]

There is also a very narrow ramp between the bowl on the right and ridge on the left that can be used (Brian or others will probably tell me I'm nuts to even call it a play since it is so small, but think of it for recovery options also instead of just a long approach).

Not quite sure I understand which area you're referring to here, but I would agree that the bank to the left of the green can be used as a backboard for recovery shots from short of the green (a la Tiger's chip in at #16 in the Masters in 2005).  In fact I think I used that backboard when I last played with you there.

[Mike_DeVries]

Not quite sure I understand which area you're referring to here

Sweet, I still have something on the ground that a very perceptive GCA'er hasn't noticed!    I am referring to the walk-on ramp at the front center of the approach, rises up on the left and drops into the bowl to its right -- maybe only 15 feet wide.

Cheers!

[Brian_Sleeman]

First time I've been called perceptive...

Are you referring to the area just short left of the green, sort of a runway area?  I don't recall much in front of the green otherwise apart from the large bowl of rough.

Beautiful day today - did I see you out there marching around the front nine?

[Mike_DeVries]

Yes, the runway.

Nope, I am in TC --headng to Kingsley in a bit, though!